Journey with us on a profound spiritual exploration, as my dear friend Chris and I weave through an intricate web of faith, truth and understanding. The twists and turns of Chris's spiritual journey are as remarkable as they are enlightening, beginning in a Pentecostal and Assembly of God church and then leading to an acceptance of truth in a Baptist church. An intriguing pilgrimage that, while not intentionally seeking conversion, finds a resounding echo in Catholic truth.
We dive headfirst into an examination of Mary as the New Testament Ark of the Covenant, an analysis as provocative as it is captivating. As we scrutinize her role in carrying the staff of Aaron, the law, and the bread of heaven realized in Jesus, we unmask centuries-old Christian dialogues and explore the reason behind the Catholic Church's decision of Mary's Immaculate Conception. Our journey doesn't stop there, it takes us further, questioning Mary's sinlessness and its connection to her elevated role as the Ark.
As we approach the end, our attention is drawn towards the essence of preparation and faithfulness in the following God's will. We reference the compelling parable of the faithful and prudent steward, leading us to contemplate the teachings of St. Basil on punishment, obedience, and our relationship with God. On this winding spiritual road, we dissect the concept of justification and salvation, sparking a riveting debate on the Catholic view of these ideas and the contentious notion of "once saved, always saved". Join us on this spiritual odyssey as we peel back layers of faith, truth, and understanding in our relentless pursuit of spiritual growth.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Journey with us on a profound spiritual exploration, as my dear friend Chris and I weave through an intricate web of faith, truth and understanding. The twists and turns of Chris's spiritual journey are as remarkable as they are enlightening, beginning in a Pentecostal and Assembly of God church and then leading to an acceptance of truth in a Baptist church. An intriguing pilgrimage that, while not intentionally seeking conversion, finds a resounding echo in Catholic truth.
We dive headfirst into an examination of Mary as the New Testament Ark of the Covenant, an analysis as provocative as it is captivating. As we scrutinize her role in carrying the staff of Aaron, the law, and the bread of heaven realized in Jesus, we unmask centuries-old Christian dialogues and explore the reason behind the Catholic Church's decision of Mary's Immaculate Conception. Our journey doesn't stop there, it takes us further, questioning Mary's sinlessness and its connection to her elevated role as the Ark.
As we approach the end, our attention is drawn towards the essence of preparation and faithfulness in the following God's will. We reference the compelling parable of the faithful and prudent steward, leading us to contemplate the teachings of St. Basil on punishment, obedience, and our relationship with God. On this winding spiritual road, we dissect the concept of justification and salvation, sparking a riveting debate on the Catholic view of these ideas and the contentious notion of "once saved, always saved". Join us on this spiritual odyssey as we peel back layers of faith, truth, and understanding in our relentless pursuit of spiritual growth.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Welcome to the my Friend the Friar podcast and thanks for listening. If you like my Friend the Friar and want to support us, please consider subscribing or following us if you haven't already done so, and if you found us on YouTube then, don't forget to click the notification bell when you subscribe so you'll be notified of new episodes when they release. Thanks again and God bless. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend Chris.
Speaker 2:Hello.
Speaker 1:Please state your name. And I don't know for the record what do they say State your name and your name and rank, or something like that.
Speaker 3:Oh, from the military Sergeant Collabs, 34, I mean 13. I don't even remember what my MOS was.
Speaker 1:Your serial number.
Speaker 3:No, my number to my MOS 1345, that's what it was. 1345, heavy equipment operator.
Speaker 1:For the record.
Speaker 2:For the record.
Speaker 1:So Father Stephen still on retreat. He retreats from a lot of things. I don't think he's very cowardly, I think he's rather brave but he sure seems to be retreating a lot lately.
Speaker 3:So I'm going to. He's doing the Lord's work, man that's right, he's talking about Jesus. Talking about Jesus, which is what we're here to do. All right, let's talk about some Jesus.
Speaker 1:So Chris, my buddy at work I've mentioned him before on the podcast. Now it's known because I get to talk to him and you all get to hear this goofy guy.
Speaker 3:I've been mentioned on the podcast. I feel special.
Speaker 1:And so try and set some kind of stage for this. Chris, you are a Christian, you love Jesus and you are seeking the truth. That's it. That's it.
Speaker 3:So yeah, just to. I mean, I started on this journey to seek the truth. I grew up in a castle assembly of God and, as a kid, the church that I grew up in pushed me away from Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, give me a quick Put Scoot back a little bit from or move the microphone away a little bit.
Speaker 3:I'm too close.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm watching it.
Speaker 3:TV's too long.
Speaker 2:He's cutting the clip.
Speaker 1:He's got a powerful voice.
Speaker 3:I just yeah, sorry. So the church that I grew up in. It pushed me away from Jesus, it pushed me away from God, but then life brought you back to him.
Speaker 3:Life brought me back. So one of the things that really pushed me away was the whole speaking in tongues, like I just didn't understand it. And they would always say, well, if you're holy enough, if you're full enough of the Spirit, then you'll just come out and speak in tongues. And man, there were some times where I was just on fire and I was like, please, let me speak in tongues today, please let me speak in tongues today. And it never happened.
Speaker 3:And so you know Joe Schmo, over here that was drinking all week and, you know, hitting his wife. He comes in on Sunday and all of a sudden he can speak in tongues. And it just got me thinking if that's the God that you're following, I don't want to follow that God. And so I left. And then in high school I was searching. You know, I was lost. I've been alone for most of my life. And so I was searching and lost and found a group of friends that went to a Baptist church and I was like, hey, these guys accept me for who I am and they're letting me eat their food, and Wednesday night I don't have to worry about where I'm going to be, and Saturday and Sunday I don't have to worry about what I'm going to be, because there was always, you know, church stuff going on. So I was like man. I like this God.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I didn't know the true God, I didn't know his son, I didn't know anything. So that's where I learned you know God, his son, you know all that good stuff. But then I started going to a Baptist church and stayed in the Baptist church and then I realized that I didn't want to be a denomination. I realized that there's a lot of and not knocking anything. I've shared with you several times that I wouldn't be where I'm at and my family wouldn't be where we're at if it wasn't for first Baptist church Arlington.
Speaker 3:I give beautiful people and and again, I don't think they maliciously did anything to me to push me away from the church, I just think it's the system and so, yeah, I just started seeking the truth. So you know, I worked, we worked here before you know, a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we've known each other like three years, yeah, three, maybe four years, going on four years maybe yeah.
Speaker 3:And we used to have such great conversations, you know, and that's really where I could kind of started on my journey of the truth. And then when I came back, came back, I don't know, a few months ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't remember now either.
Speaker 3:Yeah, june, I think I came back Sometime, sometime, anyway, but those conversations started back up, yeah, and when they started back up, it really started to me seeking back on the truth. You know, and I've told you you know I don't know I can't even tell you how many times that I've told you or how many conversations we have that you know I'm not talking to you to convert to Catholicism. You know that's not what I'm seeking. If that happens, that happens. If that's where God leads me and that's where my journey leads, that's fine. But one of the beautiful things about our conversations is you don't ever force. You know, like, yeah, one of the things I think is funny is you always tell me you're a Catholic and you don't even know it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I love that you know because it's you know. You see the beauty in your truth. You know, and it is. It's not your truth, but you see the beauty in the truth and that's what I'm seeking, and to you, catholicism is the truth you know, it's the one true church. So I think that's great and I love how steadfast you are behind it. But what really I think like really caught my attention was the fact that you tried to leave the Catholic Church you know, you like was like nah, I don't want that, and you kind of try to find it somewhere else.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You've always told me that the more you search for the truth outside the Catholic Church, the more you found truth in the Catholic Church. So that was that was really cool to me, and so that's what I did. I just started seeking the truth, yeah.
Speaker 1:So what were we talking about the other day?
Speaker 3:We were talking about Mary's conception, mary being perfect and sinless at conception, not just at Jesus's conception. Yep, and super, super interesting to me because I'd never, I never even heard that growing up, either Pentecost. Similarly, god or Baptist Never heard that, and so super interesting to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so, yeah, we just we just kind of had a conversation a little bit about it and then I went and started, you know, researching a little bit on my own and I think where I stand now is that I can believe that Mary was sinless and perfect at Jesus's conception. I can see where God made her holy and pure and sinless to conceive Jesus, to carry Jesus out through the pregnancy and to have him. I can see that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I just I don't the why at the beginning Right, why at her conception right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the question is and again, I think we kind of discussed this as well is that if, if Mary and I'll come back to this in a second, because I posed the scenario that Mary had to be perfect and sinless to to bear Jesus Well, if Mary has to be perfect and sinless to bear somebody that's perfect and sinless, which is Jesus, why wasn't Mary's mother and then Mary's mother mother?
Speaker 3:Because they would have to be perfect and sinless to to bear somebody that's perfect and sinless. And one of the things that I think we say a lot is God can do what he wants, right, he can literally do whatever he wants. But one thing that really stuck with me is you said she didn't have to be, she didn't have to be sinless and and and perfect. God just chose her to be sinless and perfect to be able to live the life worthy of bearing the Messiah, the Savior of the world. And so I can kind of understand that, I can get get on board with that, because if you go back to what, what Jesus can do with you, I mean God can do what he wants, but I still but why?
Speaker 1:her at her conception, but no one prior to her family life? Exactly, yeah, yeah, perfect.
Speaker 3:That's. That's that's a great way to look at it, because to me, the only perfect, sinless human being ever to walk the earth was was Jesus, and the only way that he was able to be perfect and sinless is because he was both 100% human and 100% God at the same time. Yeah, and in no way do I ever think that Mary was ever even close to being God.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So, but God can do what he wants right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's just kind of where where I'm kind of stuck with that and again pursuing the truth. You know, I know a little bit more now after our little bit of conversation and the research that I did. I know a little bit more now about this scenario. You know, and again, further the further I go, the more, the more I'm going to understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's this. I'm trying to find it because we were so that, excuse me, so that conversation we had somehow popped over to Martin Luther. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:Because I asked you, oh man, how did we get to Martin Luther? Because I was like I mentioned something about where, where did it end? Or where, where did the the idea of the Catholic church not being right?
Speaker 1:LA, where did that start, yeah?
Speaker 3:where, like like I think I even mentioned, I was like well, to get the answer to the question that I'm seeking, I'm gonna have to go and find where the church split.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah, because we were talking about the, the trustworthiness of different sources, so it's like was Jesus trustworthy?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 1:Was his, was his apostles trustworthy? Yes, what about the people they taught?
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Right, and so then we're like okay. So then if if you have a question of who is trustworthy in their authority, to make some kind of statement like Mary is sinless or was sinless or whatever, then who has the right to say that?
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Because if it's not, if the Catholic church is wrong to say it, well, when did they become wrong to start saying things Exactly?
Speaker 3:And, and it was where does authority start and end? And it starts and ends with Jesus. It doesn't start and end with well, where, where was that broken? Where, where, where did that, where? And that's when I was like I need to go back and find when that was broken. And and again you said well, let me tell you yeah, martin Luther.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he, he definitely had some problems. Man, I'm trying to find this quote. I had it earlier earlier tonight and I'm just trying to find it, but it was Martin Luther firmly held the belief that Mary was sinless.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And I was like oh, what a coinkie-dink. Yeah, what, what a? What a coinkie-dink.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like who would have, who would have thought so, but I can't seem to find it now on my phone really fast, so anyway. So, going back to Mary, so after we had talked, I did some some reading too, and and this is where. So what I love and I said this the other day too what I love about talking with you is we're just two dudes talking like we're not theologians.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right so we can go looking for information, but we're not you know we don't think, oh, I've got this one, you know, let me pull this out of the Rolodex and tell you kind of thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I found this article about, written by somebody who was saying why they came to believe in Mary's sinlessness, and one of the things that they cited, I guess, as reasons is they looked at the as at Mary being a type of the Ark of the Covenant. So in the Old Testament the Ark of the Covenant was this holy thing you couldn't touch. And there's all these Old Testament things like King David saying how could it, how could this be that my Lord would come to me, kind of thing. And that was mirrored by Mary's cousin Elizabeth, who said the same thing when she showed up and then, like you know, john the Baptist, little baby in her womb, like kind of wiggled around or jumped around. She's like how could this be that the mother of my God would come to me, or whatever, right? And so, looking at the two typology or the that Mary is a type of covenant or sorry, Ark of the Covenant, Ark of the Covenant, yeah.
Speaker 1:That she's bearing. If you think, like what was in the Ark of the Covenant, it was the staff, Aaron's staff, which symbolized the priesthood, the Ten Commandments, which is the law, and then the manna, the bread from heaven. And so if, then, mary is the New Testament, fulfillment of the Ark of the Covenant. What did she carry? Well, she carried the staff of Aaron, the priesthood, jesus.
Speaker 3:Jesus.
Speaker 1:The law Jesus.
Speaker 3:Jesus.
Speaker 1:And then the bread. I am the. You know you gotta eat this. I am the bread right.
Speaker 2:Like you, gotta eat the or this is my body, this is my body.
Speaker 1:You gotta eat this flesh of the Son of man thing, right? So he is the manna from heaven. So then, what does that make her? Well, it makes her the Ark of the Covenant. It doesn't make anyone else the Ark of the Covenant, because nobody else is carrying God. So then, if the Ark was some holy thing that you couldn't touch and all that kind of stuff, then she is the same thing, only she's a more perfect way of it or form of it.
Speaker 3:Well, she would be a more perfect form of it, because she's actually a human being. That bore the savior of the world. And yeah, I can man, I can totally understand all that. Where I have the biggest hiccup, I guess you could say, for lack of a better word is I just believe that that would be at Jesus's conception, like it would be when she needed to bear Jesus, and because I can wrap my mind around her being the Ark of the Covenant I mean again, jesus' law, and Jesus is the manna from heaven. I am the again going back to communion. This is my body. Take it and eat and do this and remember to me. I can see her being held in such a great light, but it's-, but why just then?
Speaker 1:Why not prior to the why?
Speaker 3:not? Why does it have to be? Why did the Catholic Church decide that it was at her conception and not at Jesus's Like? Where?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so who determined that? So I think also, what the great people of Christianity have done, the great people in Christianity have done, what they've done is sat and thought about things and dialogued about things, and they've done it for their entire lives, right? So I imagine that there was probably a lot of, because there's a lot of early devotion to Mary, and so the early apostles, and probably John specifically, because at the foot of the cross he says you know a woman, this is your son and son, this is your mother, and he took her into his home, right? So John probably spent a lot of time thinking about this, which means he probably talked about it to his personal disciples, right? And so I don't know if, when did the Catholic Church decide? Is the right question, it's when did Christianity realize? Because that's one of the things that the Catholic Church is always striving for is to protect that which we have been given, not make stuff up, not say this how do I interpret this in the modern days Exactly?
Speaker 1:What does this mean? And what does it mean 600 years ago, 1,000 years ago? What does it mean today? What will it mean in 500?
Speaker 2:years.
Speaker 1:So I think the right question is when did they decide? And so or sorry, it's not when did they decide? When did they?
Speaker 3:realize. When did they realize?
Speaker 1:And I think it would have had to come from studying a lot more than you, and I have had the opportunity to do so maybe, if you think about it, if she was the Ark, then it, and maybe it's as simple as this.
Speaker 1:Right, and, father Stephen, when you listen to this, you can call me the next day and tell me I was wrong or maybe I'm close right. But maybe it has to do with she was wholly at creation because of her intended purpose, or she was wholly at creation at her conception, right At her moment of conception, because she that allowed her to have the freedom to fully say yes to God, because that's the one thing like when, again, thinking back to Elizabeth and her husband I can't remember his name, his name, but he was like I think he was a priest, right, so John the Baptist's dad, yeah, so he either encountered an angel or he had some vision and he asked because I think Elizabeth was barren and so he asked a question of the angel, if I remember the story correctly, and the angel struck him dumb for questioning what God wants, right?
Speaker 1:So then he can't talk until and he says, you're gonna name him John, and then when John's born, like that's when all of a sudden his tongue was free and he could speak again and he's like.
Speaker 2:his name is John right.
Speaker 1:So if you look at that versus Mary, when the angel meets Mary, he already says like Hail Mary full of grace, right. And what I remember reading somewhere is the word the way it is in the original Greek is it's more of a title than it is a description. So it'd be like Hail crucifixilities, right, like it's your title or something like that. Whereas for Mary it was Hail full of grace. So she thought she questions and says what does that?
Speaker 2:mean right.
Speaker 1:She immediately starts questioning and he says this is what's gonna happen. And she's like how.
Speaker 1:She's not punished, she's not struck dumb or anything like that. So that means her question's already coming from a different place, right From a different in her heart. She's moving from a different place. And so then when he says the Holy Spirit will overshadow you, and things like that there's a lot of. Again, the tabernacle in Exodus, there is like similar imagery, like in the daytime it was a shadow or a cloud and at night it was a column of fire and stuff. Right, this is what was leading the chosen people. So he uses the same kind of imagery and then she says yes, then she consents let it be done to me according to your will.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm the handmaid of the Lord, kind of thing. So maybe she was, you know, not that it was necessary, but it was appropriate.
Speaker 2:If she's the Ark, then she's pure, just from her conception.
Speaker 1:Her mom was not the Ark, her mom was not the Ark of the Ark. You know what? I mean so it's just Mary. So then, in her unique freedom from sin, it gave her the ability to say yes in a way that you or I couldn't have, and it's not that that was necessary, but it's appropriate and it's beautiful and God works in beauty.
Speaker 1:And so maybe it's something as simple as something like that and so some, like the church, was sitting around going, wow, what a beautiful, an amazing thing. And then it wasn't until the 1800s or whatever, when, when the church, you know, cuz I was saying, people like to fight and they're very protective of their mommas and stuff like that. So it's like the church is like okay, you all settle down. We're gonna say very clearly this is what happened, this is how it is, and y'all don't go overboard on stuff cuz.
Speaker 2:That's not appropriate.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. Jesus is your savior, jesus is your God. Mary's not, she's just x, y and z and they kind of defined it out the way that they always knew, but with more clarity so people cannot lose focus. I wonder, it's probably something like that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean and that makes a A lot of sense. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But only if they have the authority to say well, that's the thing is where does the authority come from?
Speaker 3:right and we discuss that, I think, pretty thoroughly the other day is what is the third the authority begins and ends with with Jesus period, but one of the things that that you Listening to, you hear that explanation of it, whether it be right, whether it be wrong, whether it be that easy or not. Yeah, it got me thinking too, because if, if, if Mary was, was sinless at her conception, why would she be questioning God? However, however, I see your mind working, I see I see the the wheels start to turn in, but when I asked my mother myself that question Sorry, I get excited.
Speaker 3:I know when I ask, I definitely get excited when I start talking about this next, this, this the story. Because when, when I think about questioning God, I Go back to Jesus in the garden. And Jesus, we know, was perfect, sinless. We know that, but he's still questioned God.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:He's still. You know, three times he went back to God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, are you sure?
Speaker 3:Are you sure Like? You know, there's, there's gotta be another way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know.
Speaker 3:Of course, this isn't verbatim, obviously, but this is what he's thinking, you know, and in that moment, one of the reasons why that's my favorite story is because when, when, when I was by myself and Jesus clearly states that he's by himself, he goes back to his men and, like you, can't even say it an hour yeah you can't even say up, you know, you don't even understand what's going on here and you can't even just stay up with me.
Speaker 3:So I've been alone, yeah, and I've been alone seeking. Now, don't get me wrong, in any way Am I trying to compare myself to God. I'm just trying to see when I can, I can empathize with God and I can see where, where God empathizes with us through his son, through the Savior of the world. And so, when, when, when I feel myself becoming afraid or questioning God I Remember the Savior of the world did the same thing. So it lets me know that it's okay. I'm not saying in any ways so don't get my words twisted that it's okay to question God. I'm not saying that because it's not. I'm just saying that we're human and we do, yeah, but it's okay to be afraid. But the moment that that Jesus realized that that this is, this is it, this is this, is the moment that I know that this is the only way. He said okay, you're will be done. That's exactly what Mary did. Yeah, mary questioned God, like what me.
Speaker 3:Hello do you know who I am? You know. But in that moment, when she realized this, this is the way she was like okay, then let's do it your way. Yeah and so I, I can, I can, I can understand where it's appropriate, it would be appropriate and when. When you brought up I'm glad you brought up the, the, the, the arch of the covenant, because, yeah, mom, mary's mom wasn't the arch of the covenant, her mom's mom wasn't the arch of the arch of the covenant it was.
Speaker 3:It's about Jesus. Yep, 100% about Jesus. It's not about Mary. Yeah, don't get me wrong. Mary plays a huge role in it because it's Jesus's mom, but it's not about her, it's about Jesus. And if you look at Jesus's story and you look at him alone in the garden questioning God, why, you know, why me. What can we do to not make this happen?
Speaker 2:yeah.
Speaker 3:Mary's in the same situation. Yeah like she didn't ask for it, she didn't choose it, she chose it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to say she didn't choose it, when her plan exactly.
Speaker 3:That's a better way to put it. Yeah it wasn't her plan, but she was like okay, if this is what you want, god.
Speaker 3:Yeah so I Can, I can, I can wrap my brain around that. I can understand that, yeah, and and See where it would be appropriate and it would be. It's a beautiful thing, this it's. It's just it's hard for me to wrap my mind around anybody else being sinless and perfect other than Jesus. That's just where that's, because If there was anything that the churches that I've been to, if there's anything that they pressed into me, yeah, was the only perfect person on the planet was Jesus. Yeah, right, so that that isn't better than me and I wholeheartedly believe that, but I can, I can, I can, and that's that's again. That's why I'm on this journey, that's why I'm asking these questions, that's why I'm doing my research on my own for the first time in my life.
Speaker 3:Yeah at 42 years old.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know. So let me ask you a question and it might help you maybe, because ultimately You're in the same boat, is your, and so am I, so is everybody we're all in the same boat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, how do we move? How do we move our hearts to a disposition of of God? I accept what you chose to happen Throughout history. I choose what you. I choose what you want to happen for me in my life, right, so? So maybe this will help you continue to move towards that, because ultimately you're going to have to. I Mean it's either something that you will I don't like saying you'll get over it.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm but you'll move to a place where you go. Okay, there is nothing theologically wrong about this, and so I can let God lead me in this right. So if you were born and you're, like I don't know, eight months old and you died for some Unfortunate reason, have you committed any sin yet?
Speaker 3:Well, I would say so, how?
Speaker 1:because you're born within okay, you're so, other than the, the original sin, which is a break in relationship with God, which is restored through Jesus, right other than that, let's think more of, like the I didn't do the thing that God wants me to do, sin.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Have you done that at eight months old? Well?
Speaker 3:no okay.
Speaker 1:So then, is it possible that any human, is it possible not probable, but possible that you could go your whole life and continue to make good choices and never Choose to act in sin? I Don't think so. You don't think any human could ever do it. I don't think so. But you think a virgin can have a baby? I.
Speaker 3:Knew you were going there to say right.
Speaker 1:So it's like one of those things where it's like, okay, so that's not even possible Nor probable but it happened. Yeah. So then if, if, if this is like a point zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, zero, one percent chance that somebody could Possibly do it. It's still possible. Yeah that's stupid argument kids make. But it's still possible. Yeah right, okay, so it's possible. So maybe it's possible that Mary never acted in sin mm-hmm which would make her sinless.
Speaker 1:So then the question would be so did because she's the Ark. Could God have, through Jesus, restored that relationship with her so she could perfectly say yes to him? Yeah, right, so that's kind of the thing like think about it we don't have to solve for it now, as oh, for sure but like think about it, because maybe that can move your heart to a position of All right, I can see it's possible. So then, therefore, what does that mean for someone like me?
Speaker 3:and and that's that's. That's Really where I'm at right now is like I can understand why that was and and again Decided. I guess that's the worst. You say realized they when they realized it? I can, I can understand.
Speaker 3:I understand when they got there how they got there, how they got there, not where they got there, but how they got there. I get that and again With everything else in my life and everything else that I believe about Jesus. You, it's gonna have to be one of those things that it's just one day it's gonna hit and it's-. Yeah, it moves from your head to your heart, Exactly right, and you said that before, and it's the truth, because it took me a long time, a long time, to believe that Jesus did what he did.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I thought that it was possible. I was like, yeah, how did all this stuff get? How's all this stuff here? How are the planets perfectly aligned?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:How are we perfectly spinning at the right speed to? Not just, if we're a millisecond off, we're-.
Speaker 1:Flying off in all directions.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, but it took me a really long time just to believe Jesus is who he says he is, and not that it's gonna take me that much longer to maybe possibly believe that Mary was sinless at her conception. Because I have a fuller heart, I have a more Jesus-filled heart. Now I think in a different, I see in a different, I feel in a different way than I did before. I knew who Jesus was. So I'll never rule it out that it'll go from my head to my heart.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I thought about you this morning when I was. I wake up and I don't have the opportunity, schedule-wise, to go to Daily Mass, and so I have a fancy app on my phone and I have all the mass readings for each day. And I thought of you when I was reading the gospel this morning, and so I think it's about prudence and I'm curious what you think. So I'm gonna read it, which apparently is like the death of any kind of media thing you like. Don't read up, but hush up and y'all listen.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So it's the gospel calling Luke. So Jesus said to his disciples be sure of this if the master of the house had known the hour when the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be broken into. You also must be prepared, for at an hour you do not expect, the son of man will come. Then Peter said, Lord, is this parable meant for us or for everyone? And the Lord replied who then is the faithful and prudent steward whom the master will put in charge of his servant, his servants, to distribute food and allowance the food allowance, sorry, at the proper time.
Speaker 1:Blessed is that that servant, servant who his master, on arrival, finds doing so Truly, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all of his property.
Speaker 1:But if the servant says to himself my master is delayed in coming and begins to beat the men's servants and the maid servants to eat and drink and get drunk, then that servant's master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour and will punish the servant severely and assign him a place with the unfaithful. That servant, who knew his master's will but did not make preparations nor act in accord with his will, shall be beaten severely, and the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating, shall be beaten only lightly. Much will be required of the person entrusted with much, and still more will be demanded of the person entrusted with more. And I thought about you in this because of another conversation we had in one of these days how and you kind of, were alluding to it at the very beginning too how the people at First Baptist Church of St Arlington Arlington.
Speaker 1:Arlington are beautiful, wonderful people and they helped you find Jesus right. Okay, so the servant who was ignorant of his master's will but acted in a way deserving of a severe beating shall be beaten only lightly. So if someone in that church teaches you something that is wrong in Christian theology, because that's what they were taught and their parents taught them that, and their parents taught them that and their parents taught that like it's not, they're not malicious they're not trying to lead you astray they're teaching you the best they know, but the person who knows the master's will but does not do what he's supposed to right.
Speaker 1:So to me that speaks of prudence. And so I've asked you before, or I've been praying for you, to have courage right Like when do you have enough? When do you act?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like when have I gotten enough? And cause I have to do this, and every again everyone's in the same boat. When am I being stubborn and I don't wanna do what the Lord is asking me to do, and when do I act because I know better and I know what he's asking me to do and so I'm just so. Again, I was thinking about you because, like when, the when I've heard people say things like and I'm not trying to like Uber, put you on the spot or anything but I've heard, like people who are like atheists say well, I see no evidence for God. Well, how do you? What would that evidence for God be? I don't know, but I would know it if I saw it. Yeah, whatever You're just you've probably seen it, you don't wanna hear it or don't wanna admit it.
Speaker 1:So I'm kinda wondering, like what do you think? What would be the thing that moves something from your head to your heart, to where you're not just seeking God's will, but you're desiring to do what the Master wants?
Speaker 3:Yeah, man what a, what a Is it?
Speaker 1:just knowledge.
Speaker 3:What a great question, cause it's not just knowledge, because it wasn't just knowledge that I gained to truly understand who Jesus is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Right, I had a lot of knowledge and a lot of different people feeding me a lot of knowledge.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I was taking them at their word. But it was, there was a moment where I realized and man, I can't describe it, I can't, I can't-.
Speaker 1:Were you Christian yet, or was this like kinda, when you were younger? Still no, I wasn't.
Speaker 3:I thought I was a Christian. I thought that I was doing everything right and you know, I was going to church Sundays and going to church on Wednesdays and I was reading my Bible and I was doing Bible studies and I was sharing it with people at church and people on the streets. I thought I was doing the right thing. But there was still something missing. It was that I still, as I was doing those things, I still didn't truly believe that Jesus. I wasn't really believing what I was telling these people. It was I wanted my ticket out of hell. That's what it was it was. I knew that if I believed in this guy, I wasn't gonna go to hell because that's what I was taught.
Speaker 3:And so I was like I'm trying to earn that ticket out of hell and this is what I was told to do it. But I realized that that's not how you get your ticket. You know it's not. You go out and you just talk to people about Jesus and you get your ticket out of hell and that's. We can go into that in a whole another podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a quote. We've been talking about the saints, you and I a bunch lately.
Speaker 3:Let me get this thought out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go for it.
Speaker 3:I'm just gonna pull up this question Because you asked me the question and I don't want to not answer it and I mean just to be full transparency. I don't know if I have an answer like a full answer tonight, but I can tell you that the moment that I knew Jesus was who he says he is and Jesus is, I mean, and God is who he says he is it was more like he told me, like he told me and I believed it. It wasn't. Somebody told me it wasn't. You told me it wasn't. The pastor told me it wasn't. The youth minister told me it was.
Speaker 3:Jesus told me, but it wasn't this that he told me it was. I believed it and at that moment I believed it. I don't know what it was that turned it on and that said oh, at this moment, you know, christopher Cobbs is gonna believe in God and believe in Jesus and believe he is who he is and who he says he is, and believe that he did what he did. And you know all the stories that I've been hearing since I was a kid. Well, I believe it now.
Speaker 1:So I don't, I don't, I don't know, man, it makes me think that, like the woman at the well right Cause she like runs into town, like this guy told me everything about me, like I believe him, like he and she.
Speaker 3:She was a Samaritan, I think she wasn't even a Jew, so she was a Samaritan. And it's funny you bring that up because, again, that is one of the stories that I relate to the most is because when, when, when I wanted my ticket out of hell and I'm not saying that the woman at the well just did it because she wanted her ticket out of hell, I'm not saying that, but I felt like her in that moment where she just wanted to go tell everybody about Jesus. Well, when I realized that Jesus was my ticket out of hell, I wanted to tell everybody, like hey man.
Speaker 3:I found the ticket, I found the golden ticket. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Cause, cause it's definitely. There is something very beautiful about that grace filled moment when you realize well, when you know how absolutely disgusting of a human being you are and Jesus says here's your ticket.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, you're like what it's like again you go, you go back to to Mary sitting there like why me?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:You know what? What? No, I don't deserve that ticket, but you're going to give it to me anyway. I didn't know how to, I didn't know how to accept the ticket.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I didn't know how to take the ticket. I was just like I want the ticket but I didn't understand what the ticket really was yeah, get out of trouble.
Speaker 3:Yeah yeah, get get out of jail free, right? Yeah, it's, it's. I didn't know what the power of the ticket was. I didn't know that there was a chocolate factory at the end of it. That is going to be mine, you know, and it it's. That's something that I, that's, man, you got me really thinking, because it's taking me back to that moment when I, when I realized and like what, what, what was I thinking in that moment? What was I feeling in that moment? And I've shared, I've shared it a couple of times with people that are like, well then, you don't really, if you don't remember the exact moment and you don't remember the exact oh yeah, when did you accept Jesus as your Lord?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And if you don't remember that and if that was truly the most important decision of your life, you would remember it and you'd remember the second and the hour and blah, blah, blah and the date and all that stuff, and I'm like I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 1:Well again, buddy, that's why you're Catholic, because because, for, like, I'm kicking stuff too now, so there is no moment, for I know when I heard God speak to me in my life and I was like what the like that's crazy, like this is something is now different, but I knew like that moment, I can remember that moment, the way you remember that moment. But then it's the millions of small decisions over the course of the rest of your life where you have failed and succeeded to be faithful when he's faithful and when you fail to be faithful, when he is still faithful, that draws you deeper into that relationship and that's Catholic theology, right?
Speaker 1:That's you working out your salvation. Right, with fear and trembling, as St Paul says. Right, that's that this never ending journey? It ends when you die and then, god willing, you got life forever, right. So, st Basil, or?
Speaker 1:Basil depending on if you're British or US English Basil. So he lived like the 300s-ish, something like that. I don't know the exact date, but he said if we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages sorry, if we, it's real small font, let me try again If we turn away from evil out of the fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, we resemble mercenaries. Finally, if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands, we are in the position of children.
Speaker 1:Right and we a lot of times can start in that position of like I got this ticket out of jail.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 1:I don't want to go to hell, I don't. You're literally a slave, right? I don't want that bad thing. I don't want to be punished for the bad thing, so I'm going to do the good thing and then if it's like, well, I'm going to keep doing this stuff instead because, like, I'm working towards something, well, then again you're just getting paid to do the thing. So you're the mercenary. But if you love God, you love Jesus and you will his will, you desire his will and you strive for it because you love him. Right now you're a son of God and I just think that's beautiful, Coming all the way from the 300s man. That's why I love the saints.
Speaker 1:Cause like every now and then, one of them will say something and you're like dude, you're cool. And then you look him up and you're like you were a jerk.
Speaker 2:Like you were a dude, just like me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that woman just like me, but you had this moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's what's beautiful about it is, I mean, look at Paul, oh yeah, look at Paul and what Jesus did with Paul. You know what God did with Paul. He wrote half the New Testament, you know. But he began his journey killing Christians, killing the.
Speaker 1:Christians Just because they were Christians. Yes, waking up, kill Christians.
Speaker 3:I've never killed somebody just to kill somebody, you know, and I'm not saying I'm going to go off and write the New Testament, nothing that. But I'm just saying when I, when I, when I look at the people that Jesus used and uses man, I'm not so bad you know, but I am bad and don't deserve that ticket.
Speaker 3:I'm just as bad If you get what I'm saying. I don't want to get wrapped up in thinking, oh, I'm better than Paul because I didn't kill Christians just because they were Christians. No, I'm not saying that, but I'm saying, man, I haven't done anything near that bad in my life and yet I still get a ticket.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so that's the. That's an interesting thing and maybe we'll have to save it for another episode. But the non-Catholic Christian theology on justification and salvation never, it never jived with me, it never made sense. The fact that, like even scripturally, you look at people who turned away from Jesus, right Like the whole John six when he's talking I am the bread of life like unless you eat the flesh of the Son of.
Speaker 1:Man you have no life within you and people are like who could follow this the saying's hard or this teaching's hard and like he lets them walk away. Like it says in plain today if you don't want to do what Jesus says, he's going to let you go.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that's the beauty of Jesus's love. Right, that's the beauty of God's love. Is like. I have this for you, this is here, here it is, but if you don't want it, you don't have to take it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And for, like the whole, once saved, always saved, kind of thing to me it seems very illogical, right, I've done this. It's instead of I've made this grace forever available to you if you want it, but you don't have to have it. It's instead I've made this grace available to you. You can have it now, like you can. You can take it, bring it home with you, put it on the shelf, and then you're good for the rest of eternity, no matter what you do. And that's weird versus it's always available to you.
Speaker 3:That's something we'll have to dig into another podcast, because that's something that I believe in wholeheartedly that I don't agree with the Catholic Church and the Catholic teachings Because it is, it's and again, open to seeking the truth. That's just what I believe is the truth and, again, I don't want to go into it because it's there's way too much.
Speaker 3:Exactly Because I do want to talk about it. But going back to the, here's your ticket. You get your ticket, no matter who you are. Jesus wrote a ticket for you. You get to have it, you get to. But you said something earlier that really stuck with me is I don't want to do it the hard way. Well, just in my little bit of teaching or a little bit of readings and a little bit of research that I've done on Martin Luther, that's why he split the church. Now there's a whole lot more that goes into it, but he's like man, I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't believe that. That's what I want to do for the rest of my life. And he goes from being a Catholic priest to being a Protestant, to protesting against the church, because he didn't want to do the hard stuff, and that's again. That's in a nutshell. And again I am no.
Speaker 1:Yeah, somebody out there is cursing you already.
Speaker 3:I know somebody's going to be yelling at me and being like no you are wrong and I will admit. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I'll admit it. Yeah, absolutely. I've been talking about the guy so far and again. It's been just a little bit, not saying that I've done a whole lot of research on that, but it's just to me. What I understand now and again, I'm still seeking the truth, still learning, still doing that is he split the church and put this whole wave of reformation because he wanted an easy way out?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I guess something that Father Stephen has said to me once before is and I said it to you the other day who's work is it? How does he say it? Who's work is unification and who's work is community? And who's work is isolation and division right Because the Holy Spirit does not divide. Now, whatever Jesus says, like parent and father against son, and mother against son that's not what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3:I'm talking about.
Speaker 1:If you're following Jesus, he brings everything together.
Speaker 3:Exactly. He doesn't split and separate every part. He's about community and about wholeness and bringing people together. Well, Satan, his only purpose in being is to separate us from God. That's his only purpose.
Speaker 1:So that's another thing where it makes me go. Yeah, it's hard for me to follow that right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and again, I'm glad you told me Martin Luther man, I just thought Martin Luther was. The dude yeah was a guy and honestly I thought he was a Catholic priest.
Speaker 2:I mean I did, I was like Martin Luther's Catholic priest.
Speaker 3:I didn't know he. And again that's my not doing research on my own, that's me just taking everybody's word at their word. And again I'm not here to say anybody did anything malicious in what they were. I would not be here and my family would not be whole without First Baptist Church Arlington and the people inside of it Amen.
Speaker 3:And I will forever be grateful to them. I just think and it goes back to the one that's doing is doing the teaching, that knows that they're teaching the wrong thing and they keep teaching it, and then the teacher, and then the teacher, and the teacher, and the teacher, and the teacher and the teacher, and he goes oh dang, you know he's the one that's held accountable.
Speaker 3:He's the one that knows he's teaching wrong. These people have been taught by people before them that truly thought that they were teaching the truth. They really believe that they were teaching what was the truth. And when I again, when I start looking at things in my own, doing my own research, going out and not just taking who's right in front of me and my pastor's word for it, because he's my pastor, because I will still say that my pastor truly believes in his heart that he's teaching the truth and he wanted the best for me whenever he was guiding me through the most difficult time in my life.
Speaker 3:He wanted me to have Jesus and he was teaching me the best way he knows how to teach me to find Jesus, because that's what he wanted and that's what I wanted. I just wanted to be out of what I was in and that church helped me and so and it's not, it's nothing against those people, man, they are some of the best. My best friend in the world I met at that church, you know, and people that just pulled me, people I don't even know, were just pouring love onto me because they loved Jesus.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's a saying, and we'll wrap this episode up here because this has been good, but we'll talk forever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm gonna be. Yeah, we know each other. We'll talk forever.
Speaker 1:But the saying and I don't know if it originated from someone else, but I heard it from Father Mike Schmidt is God writes straight on crooked lines.
Speaker 3:Yes, you told me that before. Like it's just beautiful, it is, it is.
Speaker 1:So, like God, bless all those people in that church. Absolutely who loved on y'all and took care of y'all. Absolutely, it's just good stuff.
Speaker 3:Because that's a perfect example. God writes straight on crooked lines, Because God knows that that's what I needed at that time. Amen. So, man, this has been fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cool, We'll do it again sometime okay, yeah, absolutely 100% Love y'all. Everyone, thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time. God bless.