After several weeks of travel and recovering from fall allergy induced sickness, John and Father Stephen delve into the reality of how ritual and religion point to something greater: our relationship with God. Their conversation reflects on how evangelization is intimately tied to relationships, interpreting gospel passages, and a deep dive into the challenges of being reverent at the communal celebration of the mass.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
After several weeks of travel and recovering from fall allergy induced sickness, John and Father Stephen delve into the reality of how ritual and religion point to something greater: our relationship with God. Their conversation reflects on how evangelization is intimately tied to relationships, interpreting gospel passages, and a deep dive into the challenges of being reverent at the communal celebration of the mass.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Welcome to our podcast friends. Thank you so much for listening. If you like our podcast and want to support us, please subscribe or follow us, and please don't forget to click the notification bell so you will be notified when new episodes are released. Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the friar feather, stephen Sanchez, a disc house, carmelite priest.
Speaker 3:I missed you. Don't ever leave me again.
Speaker 2:You've been gone forever.
Speaker 4:I've been ever Doing a lot of traveling. Yeah, so it's a rock Dallas, san Antonio, dallas, little Rock, dallas for retreat, back to Little Rock, fly to Houston, fly back to Little Rock and then drive back down to Dallas. So it's been.
Speaker 1:Busy.
Speaker 2:What was the most exciting thing that happened while you were gone?
Speaker 1:The most exciting thing that happened while I was gone.
Speaker 4:I got scared by a possum. What happened? We were on our retreat.
Speaker 2:Was it in.
Speaker 1:Dallas or.
Speaker 4:Little Rock yeah it was in Dallas. We were on retreat the friars. All of us were on retreat. One early morning I was sitting there in the. It's like there's different little houses and then there's a main conference room and a main chapel and stuff. So we're in our house. There was Father Jorge, father Luis Ardo, father Jerome, father Marion, father Jim.
Speaker 4:So I got up early, as I usually do, to make coffee and I'd been coughing and just sitting there in the living area and I was doing some work on note taking on that book on traditions by Father Buye, the meaning of tradition by Father Buye. I was typing, I was digitizing my notes, I was typing my laptop, sipping my coffee, being very contemplative, thinking about what he's saying, and I turned to my left where there's these big picture windows and there's a freaking possum sitting there looking at me. It just totally freaked me out. And then he just kind of looked at me and then walked away and, pointing to the garage, like oh, my words, like no. So then I told the other guys and they go like, apparently on their side of the house, they go like that's what we hear, because apparently here's something walking around in the roof. I go yeah, it's Mr Possum. So anyway, that was the exciting thing. That just totally caught me off guard. That's funny.
Speaker 4:And another exciting thing that happened was we had the nuns association of Queen of Carmel that were having their association meeting in Little Rock on the weekend of the 20th, something like that, and which is why I had to drive back to Little Rock on Saturday to get ready for them to come visit on Sunday. So we had over 40 nuns at the monastery, at the castle, and so they came midday and so Mr Pilkington myself, father provincial, were there. So we had hot dogs and hamburgers and grilled chicken and sodas and water and all sorts of refreshments and stuff for them. So they came and they had lunch with us and then right after lunch they went on ATVs. There's like we had Mr Pilkington's daughter and her husband have a car place in. They sell cars in an auto place in Clarksville.
Speaker 4:So they brought four or five ATVs right, these big like razor things. They're really awesome looking. So the nuns were taking the nuns around the property on the ATVs and then Mr Pilkington put together a hayride and so you had all these nuns going on a hayride and then they went on walks and some were still on the ATVs all afternoon. They were out having a great old time, and then they had vespers, and then we served them supper in the evening. So they were from 10.30 in the morning till about 7.30 at night. My goodness, so I was exhausted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what is that like for them Like? What is the energy like? Because some of them not, because there were some nuns that weren't carmelite nuns, correct?
Speaker 4:I think they were all carmelite nuns, okay.
Speaker 2:I thought I saw some different colored habits, so then, even more so. What's it like when they get out? It's like somebody let them out of their box.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 4:Yeah, they go crazy. And so they were just so excited and so they wanted to eat lunch there by the lake, so we had to move all the picnic tables by the lake. Yeah, it was a great day, it was fun, they had a great, great, great time, but it was exhausting trying to keep track of nuns it's like herty cats. It's like, uh so, father, do you have father? Could I have father? Okay, so whatever.
Speaker 2:That's amazing, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, so they had a really great time. So that was exciting as well. The two exciting things was the exciting visit of the nuns and then the scare of the possum, mr Possum.
Speaker 1:Mr Possum.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you sound better and you're just getting over getting sick too, on top of everything.
Speaker 4:Yes. So the pollen and everything, the allergies, and then go in, driving from Dallas to Little Rock and then from San Antonio Dallas. Oh, oklahoma City too. I was in Oklahoma City, too, for a weekend or something, and so I was just dying, and so for me I have to be careful that it doesn't go down into my lungs. So I had a sinus infection and then so, when I was in Houston for the Interprevential Council meeting of the three different councils of the secular order, I was at the Passionist Retreat Center in Houston Beautiful place, but, my word, they kept it like at minus 20 degrees. I was dying.
Speaker 2:It sounds like heaven to me.
Speaker 4:So on top of that and everything else, and then I came back and I was by time I got back to Little Rock and drove back to Dallas. I was sick, and I was sick and dying when I was driving back. I just didn't want to wait any longer. I needed to get back to Dallas, and so I got back. And so when I called you your voice man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was amazing, I mean, and it was funny is because I guess sometime at the beginning of this year I think, I got sick too and I was like man, my voice sounds gnarly. So I did a little like random recording and just I think I saved it somewhere. So maybe I'll find yours in mind and I'll just like splice it in here.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the Friar Father Stephen Sanchez, a discalced Garmelite priest, and Berfa yes, I hate being sick. Either that or God answers prayers, because I always wanted to sound this cool.
Speaker 4:I may not be able to record an episode for a few days.
Speaker 2:But it was like if we sounded like that normally we would be the two most popular dudes on earth. Like we sound way cool when our voices are all like super deep and rough.
Speaker 1:Sound like.
Speaker 4:Calvary.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, my goodness, it's been too long, too long. Well, today, I guess, if we want to get to it, religion and relationship.
Speaker 4:You forgot to say welcome to the podcast. Did you say that?
Speaker 2:Did I? Oh yeah, I did because I got all excited that you're here.
Speaker 2:But welcome, welcome, father, and welcome everyone else again. Thanks for joining me and my friend the Friar. Yeah, I saw this. I saw this video. I can't even tell you like when I saw it at this point in time, but it was. It's something about it struck me because the video had a oh, what is this? I think his last name is Halsworth or something. Really interesting guy and I think he lives up in Canada. Really interesting guy, really thoughtful, and he had made a point and if you ever were to hear this, I apologize.
Speaker 3:Was this the dude with a beard? Yeah, yeah, red beard the red head.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So I apologize for probably at this point in time, because this is like maybe a month removed from when I heard it, so I'm probably super not being what they call it. Like this is a straw man argument. I can't even remember enough to really cite what his, what I felt his position was, but there was something about it regarding relationship and religion, and he was saying how sometimes there is a lack of understanding. Yeah, people, yeah, like people think that it's all just about relationship, but they miss that religion is part of that relationship, or maybe it's kind of like the manifestation of that relationship. Yeah, it's the thing that draws you into relationship with God, and so I think that was what it was about.
Speaker 2:But anyway, all that to say some of the stuff that was making me think about was really we've been talking a lot about evangelization and you know, recently I talked with my buddy, chris, on one of our episodes and man, the relationship part, like everything hinges on that relationship. Everything like you and God, you and Jesus, you and your neighbor, you and your friend the friar, like all of it hinges on relationship and like it kind of you know me, like I wish I was a farmer. Right, it makes me think about that, because you can't like, if you can't just go and share facts like I'm going to share with you the correct facts, that's going to change your mind and bring you closer to God like it just doesn't work that way and so, like, for me, thinking like farming, it's like the conditions have to be right.
Speaker 2:You got to put all this effort and care into what you're doing, you got to wait a long time for stuff to, like, grow and develop over time, and so it's like, really that relationship, and you know, that kind of makes me think of, like Chris, one of the things that we had said, like we don't even know how we ever started talking about Jesus, like ever, like no idea how it came up, but ultimately it's, there's a relationship between he and I where he trusts me enough, right, we're good friends enough to where he trusts my opinion as something worth considering at least, and so, even where we're different, it's something to where, like, he's willing to think about it still, you know, so I don't know. So, like that kind of kind of triggered in my head and I guess you know when I think about you relationship is a really big part of your spirituality, right, but like, how did? How did you get to, how did you get to understand, like as you do, that relationship, like the importance of it? I think.
Speaker 4:The beginning part was very much on structure for us as religious and for me, joining a religious order and beginning that new life. So there's a lot of emphasis I shouldn't say emphasis Most people in a new environment, in a new situation. They go towards those things that are most measurable In religious life. Those measurable things, we would say, are the discipline, the religion we call the ororium, the schedule of the day when prayer is, when personal prayer is, and lots and mass and all those different things. What's expected of you in terms of your behavior within the monastery, how you conduct yourself. All those things are externals and it's something that can take up a lot of our time because it's new, because we want to do things right, and so you would say that that is kind of the religiosity or the religion aspect would be that type. It's the behavior kind of thing, and once and there are some people who never leave that mentality, they never leave that way of looking at our faith, life or Catholicism or Christianity it turns into what we would call a task list. These are things that I need to do. So as long as I'm doing the right things and doing them right, then I'm okay. And it wasn't until, as I entered deeper into religious life and was reading the Tari'i and John and Therese and other Carmelite saints, to see their sanctity, to see their way of life, was something that was and is something to strive for. But what was missing for a while was the connection between their virtuous life, the way they lived their lives, their sanctity. What was missing for me was the connection between that and, as I separated brethren would say, a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And what was missing was because it was sort of like okay, I'm doing the right things, the externals are there, and the more we read about spirituality, the more I began to study spirituality within our classes and our own formation program, within the order. They begin to teach you like, yeah, the structure is there, but the structure is there to support something other. So what is the structure supposed to support? The structure is supposed to support that personal relationship with Jesus Christ, that personal relationship with God, the Father, through Jesus Christ. And then that's how, then, that relationship begins to become much more important in terms of yes, there's the observance, there is the religion part, there is the measurable part, there are those things. But, more importantly, those things are there to help you cultivate that deeper knowledge, that deeper relationship with the Lord in a very personal way and for us, when it comes to prayer, so that in prayer you begin to spend less time residing, and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean you can spend good prayer time residing and spending time reflecting on the vocal prayers or the recitation of prayers, and that there's a way to do that. That can be very beneficial.
Speaker 4:But in my personal journey then part of it was like spending time to really, as Teresa of Jesus would say, to spend time with Jesus as friend, and so to begin to see Jesus as friend and to be more vulnerable, more open, allowing the Spirit to enlighten, allowing the Spirit to heal, allowing the Spirit to bring things up within myself that I needed to look at and face and ask questions and ask okay, how does this, how do I allow the Lord to make this part of his plan so it becomes much more a personal relationship, without, without minimizing the discipline. So in spirituality, the way it's explained is the exterior discipline is there to help you strengthen your will so that you can have an interior discipline. So the interior discipline is not about rigidity. The interior discipline is to be able to go deeper into yourself and have the structure to support you in your journey of discovering your personal journey, in the way God works in, is working in your salvation history and salvation journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um, before I ask you this, I just want to make sure you're actually recording. I just got nervous all of a sudden because this is good, yes, I am recording Score. Okay, um, so that's so. I love that because the discipline. Then, if we think of religion, if we think of Christianity as a religion, yes then that naturally leads us to the Eucharist.
Speaker 1:Yes, and the mass. For us, yes.
Speaker 2:So then that so that's the plan.
Speaker 4:The mass is the celebration of the mystery that we believe in. The mass is the celebration of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and for us as Catholics, it is a continual reminder of that whenever we celebrate the Eucharist.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so you're saying like the discipline is there to support something your personal relationship?
Speaker 3:to draw you deeper.
Speaker 2:So then, thinking about the Eucharist and thinking about the mass and kind of like, you're saying all the, all the things that you got to do, you got to know when to say this and when to say that, and how to respond and when to kneel and when to stand, and you know.
Speaker 2:But that, but each one of those things, they all, they all point to something other than the mass that is supposed to be a part of our Christian reality. Right, right and yeah, I would definitely say, I would definitely say that the Eucharist receiving communion is such a wildly intimate thing.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:It's like, it's crazy, like just there's and it's so much like any relationship, like there's been times where I'll receive communion and I am aware of my what's the word I'm looking for no-transcript I'm not really like it's not as meaningful as it should be, like I am aware that this is super impactful or super important, but I'm kind of in my heart in that moment. And then there's times where I've received it, I'm I just start breaking down, crying on my way up there because I'm like this I am so unworthy of this, this love in this moment and all that kind of stuff, right, so, and that's just like any other relationship you've probably ever had.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes. And so there are moments again, and because, and because again, we all have moments of, yeah, familiarity, I mean something becomes so familiar to us that we don't really pay attention to it. And so there are moments when we have the familiarity and their moments when it's really speaks to us. And again it's a matter of I would say it's a matter of not just intentionality Am I really present? Sometimes it has to do with the work of the spirit within the person. Sometimes the work of the spirit and the person is so deep that they themselves are not aware of what's happening. It doesn't mean that there's nothing happening, it just means that you're not aware of anything happening. So sometimes it's that, sometimes it's, sometimes it's our own distraction, sometimes we're just not really there, we're not paying attention.
Speaker 4:So it's a matter of trying to understand our own journey, the, the ebb and flow, right of that right, it's difficult to be a hundred and ten percent all the time, and so there has to be a. There is an ebb and flow in our, in our Worship, in our relationship, and that's okay. That's part of that's part of the whole journey, and God, who had created us, knows that as well too, and he's patient and we'll continue to call us to himself. But part of this whole idea of then of religion and and relationship and I'm beginning to remember a little bit about that podcast that you were speaking of, where he was emphasizing Religion over relationship now it's going like nah, no, I'm not, yeah, I can't sign it.
Speaker 4:I can't sign into that yeah because religion over relationship then leads to Rigidity.
Speaker 4:It can lead to ceremonialism. It's about the ritualism, it's about the. It's about. It's about the external, the external ritual, right, and, yeah, there should be a Reverent, a reverential celebration of the ritual. But the ritual is only a Sign of something that is Deeper, or should be deeper, of a deeper reality, right, of a deeper reality. So, for me, I'm always a little cautious about that, because it's not a matter of I tell people.
Speaker 4:You know, some of the seminarians that I deal with in some of the young religious idea was like, like, the Eucharist is not a recipe, it's not about you have, you know, one quarter teaspoon of this and one tablespoon. Like. It's not about it's there is a right, it's a ritual. But the ritual is there because it points to, or should point to, something Deeper, and that is why the sacrament is Significant. That is significant because it is a sign, it points to something deeper, it should point to something deeper, right.
Speaker 4:So like, for example, your communions, right, yeah, sometimes our communions can be like, oh wait, did I go to communion? Or, or, or it could be like, completely enthralling, I mean, you're just on fire, in love with the Lord, and other times You're completely devastated because you recognize you and realize how poor you are and responding to his love, and so you're just devastated by his love and his, his mercy, and so, yeah, it's, it's. It can be all over the place because, again, like all relationships, they vary and it has to be where we find ourselves in our journey, at that point, that that ebb and that flow, the valleys and the peaks that we find ourselves in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the the other day, the other day it could have been.
Speaker 2:Six weeks maybe yeah, who knows at this point, but the the gospel reading was about. It was the wedding feast where the the guy was, or the, you know, the the king. He's inviting everybody. Nobody wants to show up. So finally he's like just anybody, just bring anybody, you know, right. And so they all show up. And then he kicks the one guy out, right, he gets them bound and thrown out because he's not wearing the proper garment, like he wasn't the originally intended invitee or guest, but You're still expected to Be prepared, kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Right, like you still need to be aware, like the guy should have been aware. Hey, this is not just a free meal right from the king, this is a wedding feast, so he should have, I guess, been dressed appropriately and I Don't know that. To me, that's very it mirrors a lot of what I see at mass, and maybe this goes to some kind of internal struggle that I'm having with Religion and relationship, or maybe struggles not the right word contemplation. I'll put that there, this thing I'm thinking about, because you know there's people who they. There are some people who spend their entire mass walking around after their baby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love babies, but, my goodness, I don't think that's what the mass is for, correct? And Then there are some people that are like talking to their whoever sit next to them the whole time, or whatever right, right and to me. I Try, I'm trying to bring that into focus. Am I concerned about the Giosity of the person or the relationship of the person?
Speaker 2:to Jesus okay, and it could be both. You know, right, like part of me is like oh, how dare you? You know this? Do you have any idea what the mass is like? And you're you're messing this whole thing up, buddy. Or just my heartbreaking because, because there are definitely people who come in and they Sit and stand and genuflect, they do everything they're supposed to do, the perfect way, but then their heart, like they're just kind of like you're saying earlier, they're just focused on the motions.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there is no relationship, so like I don't, I don't know, there's just something about it. Well, all of that just drives me crazy, man.
Speaker 4:The gospel passage that you bring, that you brought up about the wedding feast. One of the interesting things is that there was no such thing as a wedding garment there. There is no formal wedding garment, right? So for a lot of commentators are going like, okay, so this is more it has to do. There's something here that it's that, that that the evangelist is trying to communicate to us. So is it Thankfulness, appreciation is it? What is that garb is it? Is it the, the baptism? Is it Living, living your covenant to life? Or they're trying to figure out what? What is it that they're trying to get across? Because the wedding banquet is talking about the kingdom of God and the wedding banquet.
Speaker 4:Yeah and so how? Basically those that were originally invited, meaning the, the Israelites of the time, the, the Jews of the time, and, and they're refusal, the refusal by the leaders and the majority of Israel refusing, refusing the Messiah, and so basically, that's what it is. And so then you have everybody else come in, right, so everybody else is us, you know, the Gentiles and the, the prostitutes and the lame and the lepers and the beggars that that Jesus spent his ministry, a healing right. And Then there's this, this one dude there that shows up and like okay, so why aren't you dress? Try, all right, what's, what is it?
Speaker 4:And so commentators have been arguing about this for many years, trying to figure out what that is, and I see it as this is personally me, this is just me.
Speaker 4:I see it as is there an appreciation and a thankfulness for the opportunity that was afforded.
Speaker 4:Right, sort of like to show up, like you said, like to show up, yeah, I'm here for the free Thanksgiving dinner and okay, like later, bye, you know, kind of the whole entitled thing, there can be religious entitlement and sort of the entitlement thing is sort of like, well, you know, god kind of owes me, like no Right, and so I think that's part of it too, and I think when it comes to I hear you in terms of our fellow, our fellow Catholics, attending mass, sometimes it can be a little distracting, right?
Speaker 4:So just the other day I was laughing while you were recounting that, because just the other day I celebrated mass for the kids in next door and so all they're all ages, right. So I'm there celebrating, of course, and I'm facing them and I'm consecrating and I'm going through the Eucharistic prayer and out, of, you know, the periphery, out of the peripheral vision, right above past the altar, I can see there's a little boy, maybe all of eight years old, who's really, really concentrated and looking at his elbow. I mean, something's going on with his elbow, it's taking all his time, right, and so I just I just started smiling and laughing to myself.
Speaker 4:Okay here we are, the miracle of miracles, and this kid's looking at his elbow. Okay, jesus, it's all yours.
Speaker 2:Have you ever I don't even know if this is a nonsense statement but have you ever had like a perfect mass? Well, I guess, if you're the only one saying mass yourself. But I mean where there's nobody's talking, there's no babies crying, nobody's walking around, nobody excuses himself to go to the bathroom in the middle right, like and I understand, like life is happening during mass. At the same time it does, it happens right, but like, have you ever had or been in a mass like that?
Speaker 4:I think part of it has to. I think part of it has to do with you know, sometimes that the music is good and everything and you have everything's just great and the ambience is great. Yeah, there are those moments when it happens right, but I think for me mostly it has to do with keeping my focus on presiding over the liturgy, or I just sort of keeping that and not allowing the infant with the piercing shrill cry, distract me, like you know, trying like okay, so I just keep moving forward and so yeah but sometimes I think part of it too is, I think there's a, there can be a lack of consideration, not an intentional lack of consideration.
Speaker 4:For example, parents with young kids, with infants, right especially. I mean they're used to the crying because it's their life, that's part of their life, right, they're used to all the crying, they're used to all this noise and stuff and they're used to it. So when they come to church they don't really recognize or they don't really consider the fact that for other people it can be distracting or annoying, especially if a child has a piercing cry and, you know, trying to placate the child instead of, like in the old days when we had cry rooms instead of taking the child, and okay, I'm gonna go to the cry room till I settle them down and come back in and that's fine. But I think part of it has to do with a lack of awareness of the communal aspect of the celebration that my participation is not just my participation with everybody else, but the way I participate impacts those around me, so that I think that there is a lack there. I do believe that there is a lack there that can be corrected.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, Do you know? Well, I guess two questions. The second, the, is predicated on the first. So would it be better theologically, however you want to say it, not just try not to just like personal opinion kind of thing but would it be better for a family who has small children, or something like that, right to not attend mass out of consideration for what is going on there? Or would it be better that people learn how to, like myself, not get distracted by all the things that are going on and stay focused on the celebration of the Eucharist?
Speaker 2:right like which of those two, and maybe that's not an appropriate question, you know, I mean, but I guess. And then the second part of that was historically, did everyone just bring their crying babies to mass, like back in the 300s and stuff like that, you know, or do you do you know if there's anything like that?
Speaker 4:that was because I know you read a lot of histories there's no, I haven't read anything about that particular the way that people attended, right, the mass, and I think there's two, there's two ways of looking at it right, and I think there has to be a balance between both.
Speaker 4:I mean one is that the reverence that should be present at the celebration of the Eucharist, but I think primarily it has to. I think if the reverence is demonstrated by the presider and the acolytes and those that are serving at the table, if they have there, there's a reverence there. I think people benefit from that, whether there's distractions in the assembly or not, I think people benefit from the reverence that can be exemplified by the celebrants themselves. So there is that the, the reverence that is there, but also the other. The other side too, is that it is a celebration of life. It is a celebration of who we are, and so part of who we are is like, yeah, we have babies and so, yeah, sometimes babies can be cranky and yeah, and so, you know, sometimes people look at their elbows exactly.
Speaker 4:It's much more important than whatever that dude is up there saying you're doing so, and so I think part of it is you know, there's catechesis, there's, there has to be patience, there has to be consideration.
Speaker 1:I think too.
Speaker 4:I think has to do with, with trying to making sure that we don't confuse what we would consider purity with reverence. The purity of the ritual right, only people that are being attentive, only people that know how to respond, only people that want to stand and kneel, and so that would be the perfection of the execution of the ritual. But is that really what it's about? Or is it about the celebration of life, the celebration, the fact that we come in, we bring our life with our messy, stinky diapers to come to mass and offer it all up to the Lord, to to the Father, through Jesus Christ? I mean, there's different ways of looking at it.
Speaker 4:I think, holistically, I think there has to be a balance between both of the reverence that is there, but also the flexibility to know that you know, sometimes you know we're in a situation that's difficult and I think before there are some churches that are designed to have an area where, if you have a child that is misbehaving or something, you can just very quietly get up and take the child out. Yeah to the these to have cry rooms that are worth yeah, we had a cry room where I grew up yeah.
Speaker 4:So there's cry rooms or, like at St Anne's, you have that foyer in the back with the chairs and stuff so you can take your child back there still still be there for the mass and listen and actually see it with that. They have a monitor there. So I think there's ways of approaching it and I think churches have to be more in the design of the churches there, to keep that in mind as well. That you know, and again, you know, if you have to be aware of the fact that you have someone that is older, that has a hard time hearing, and they've got a baby screaming behind them, they're gonna be very distracted because, as it is, they can't hear. They're trying hard to listen to what that, what's going on. So there's so many things, so many, so many different elements that that contribute to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So all of these things, like it makes me think about a quote that you said and I can never say the French guy's name but how, like the deposit of Christian revelation, it's more than a message, it's the total Christian reality. Like I loved that. Whoever that guy is, god bless him. Like I loved it because it's really resonating with me and so I'm. I'm thinking about that as I think about all this right, that it's not just the religiosity and it's not just the relationship, because the religion supports, it, points to the relationship and and all that. And so then I guess some just I guess for us to wrap this up with is, like, why do people stop? Why do you think, in all your experience, why do people stop going to mass? Because, like, I know people who don't go to mass anymore, right, and lots of people have their reasons, whatever those reasons might be. But what do you think is really at the root of it all?
Speaker 4:I think there's. A part of it is. I think part of it is, as I said earlier, the familiarity thing, the family, that that that saying that familiarity breeds contempt, that you're so used to it that it doesn't really matter anymore, it just it's just there right. And a lot of times my own experience has been that a lot of people will stop going to mass, either because they're they're busy, they're working, they have to work, that you do work, you know two jobs or three jobs or whatever right. Or sometimes, sometimes there's a the, the pastor or the priest has said something offensive. Right, have done something that, or said something or done something that is not, should not have been said right, should not be within the context of the Eucharist, of the liturgy, of the breaking up and of the word right. And so there's many, many things and sometimes people are just looking for excuse not to go.
Speaker 4:I mean, the reasons are many and varied. Especially with the COVID stuff, a lot of people just felt like okay, and they fell into the, they fell into the habit of not going, like, well, you know, it was okay not to go back. Then like, well, no, it wasn't okay not to go, it was just. There's an extreme situation that we had to make. We had to make extraordinary, we had to make extraordinary excuses or or exceptions, exceptions, exceptions to the rule, permissions to be able to, to attend mass, you know, via media right, and so I think a lot of it has to do with, again, the personal distancing, the personal distancing right. They thought it's not something that's appreciated, but I think right now, culturally speaking, there is, there is such an emphasis right now on on just surviving, just working, just right, and what's happened is is that they have excluded their faith from that part of the survival plan. You need God to survive, but people are wanting to do it all on their own. So I think that has a lot to do with it as well.
Speaker 2:Do you think somebody with a well, let me change the word somebody, do you think a Catholic Christian with a very strong relationship with Jesus and good catechesis meaning like they do actually believe that it is the body, blood of Jesus Do you think they would stop going to mass, like, do you think there's something that would? Of course and again, maybe it's a bad question, maybe I'm just trying to grapple with, like how would I explain what would happen Because, like I can't see somebody who actually understands what's going on ever want to not be there.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:And I think there's got to be something Right.
Speaker 4:I think it's a question of a personal journey involved in that, in that, the real understanding of what it is that we're celebrating and the belief that this is truly this daily miracle, this consecration of the bread and the wine and the people of God, because that's part of the consecration it's not just the bread and the wine, but the entire people.
Speaker 4:The assembly that is attending is consecrated to God as well, but the participation of the body and blood of our Lord, I think it is something that people need to appreciate and understand in a deep way. For example, I don't know if I ever shared with you that at the school several years ago I was a chaplain here at the school next door to Mount Carmel Center and there's a little girl who was not Catholic, the family was not Catholic, but they would come up for Mass. They go to Daily Mass, so they come up. She would come up for Mass for a blessing, like you know, because she couldn't receive and she kept saying I want to receive Jesus, I want to receive Jesus, I want to receive Jesus. And because of that her parents and her went through RCIA so they could come into the church so that she could receive Jesus and I was like wow, and a child will lead them. So yeah, it was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, doesn't that just fill your heart up. Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 4:So yeah again, I, think it's a matter of, it's a personal thing, it's a personal understanding, a personal journey. What is your relationship with the Lord? To understand that, the what it is that we celebrate in the Eucharist, and wanting to be there and wanting to participate in that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and God is good. Amen, all right. Well, hey, let's. I think I've kept you long enough today. I've missed you, but I want to let you get as much rest as I can, so I'm going to cut you loose, father.
Speaker 4:Okay, thank you, I missed you too. My voice is beginning to falter too, so I can start it. Start and get scratchy, so maybe it is time to quit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right. Well, I'll see you next time. And everyone who joined us, thanks for joining.
Speaker 1:Bye guys, Bye Bye.