Embark on a spiritual expedition with Fr. Stephen Sanchez as we traverse the terrain of Christian schisms, seeking the unity once envisioned by the ecumenical council fathers. Our heartfelt discussion navigates the rich diversity of Christian thought, encouraging a blend of intellectual curiosity and compassionate outreach. As you join us, you'll gain a nuanced appreciation for the varied doctrines and histories that have both united and divided the followers of Christ. Fr. Stephen illuminates the paths that have led believers to both conflict and communion, emphasizing the call to live authentically in our everyday faith journeys.
Listen closely and discover the profound impact of humility and love in bridging ecclesiastical divides, as we explore the significance of theological disputes like the procession of the Holy Spirit, the challenging dynamics of individualism, and Christian nationalism. This episode isn't just a history lesson; it's an invitation to engage in self-reflection and to foster a more unified Christian community. With Fr. Stephen's guidance, we contemplate the transformative potential of extending grace beyond our personal circles and living our faith in a way that genuinely reflects the teachings of Christ. Join us for a conversation that aspires not only to educate but to resonate deeply with your own spiritual walk.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Embark on a spiritual expedition with Fr. Stephen Sanchez as we traverse the terrain of Christian schisms, seeking the unity once envisioned by the ecumenical council fathers. Our heartfelt discussion navigates the rich diversity of Christian thought, encouraging a blend of intellectual curiosity and compassionate outreach. As you join us, you'll gain a nuanced appreciation for the varied doctrines and histories that have both united and divided the followers of Christ. Fr. Stephen illuminates the paths that have led believers to both conflict and communion, emphasizing the call to live authentically in our everyday faith journeys.
Listen closely and discover the profound impact of humility and love in bridging ecclesiastical divides, as we explore the significance of theological disputes like the procession of the Holy Spirit, the challenging dynamics of individualism, and Christian nationalism. This episode isn't just a history lesson; it's an invitation to engage in self-reflection and to foster a more unified Christian community. With Fr. Stephen's guidance, we contemplate the transformative potential of extending grace beyond our personal circles and living our faith in a way that genuinely reflects the teachings of Christ. Join us for a conversation that aspires not only to educate but to resonate deeply with your own spiritual walk.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
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Speaker 2:Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend, the friar father, steven Sanchez, at disc house Carmelite Priest. Good morning, father, good morning. Okay, we're gonna try and bring this series of episodes full circle by trying to really dig into the parts of this that are what's what I'm looking for? I wanted to say operational thinking, like work. We can act on it, right. What is something we can take from all of this and apply? It's applicable, there's the word, there's the word I'm looking for to our lives and how we engage with other people, and so we've got some parts that have really stuck out to us, and so that's what we're gonna chew on today. And so, okay, what's the, what was the first thing for you that really stuck in your mind?
Speaker 1:I think the thing that most impressed me and convicted me both of, I guess, equal equally was the opening statement that we began the episodes with from the decree on ecumenism and how the council fathers are basically asking us to study and understand how are separated brethren, how they came to be where they're at, to understand their fundamental or foundational understanding, whether it's a revelation or redemption right, and to me that's like do you know how many denominations there are?
Speaker 2:There's something in that quote that you did that was, I thought was also really interesting, because it says Catholics who already have a proper grounding Right. That was really important when I heard you read it.
Speaker 1:Let me read that. Okay, it's from the decree on ecumenism and it's from number nine, so that the council fathers say we, us believing Catholics, we must get to know the outlook of our separated brethren. Study is absolutely required for this, and it should be pursued in fidelity to truth and with the spirit of goodwill. Catholics who already have a proper grounding need to acquire a more adequate understanding of the respective doctrines of our separated brethren, their history, their spiritual and liturgical life, their religious, psychology and cultural background.
Speaker 2:That's a lot, yeah, it's, and I guess I don't know. I try because you know, I think about myself and as the example I would love to go and help, you know, bring back into communion every non-Catholic Christian that I know. But, my goodness, like you're saying, that's a lot. So maybe it is okay prayerfully to discern and choose one group Right, and at least to to really, because what this comes back to it's not just study, it's not just knowledge, it has to come from your heart too. I think it's goodwill, yeah, yeah, like when I was a teacher, kids could they know when you're, when you really care, or not, right, and so if they know you're not really invested in them. If they know you're just playing nice or doing your job, then they don't respond to you, and so you really have to form that relationship with them, and I can see that being a really important part of this kind of effort as well. It's not just I'm going to find the facts that I can use as a tool against you, correct.
Speaker 1:Correct. Correct and I think, and that's why I wanted to do that history that led up to the split, because all of that is the cultural, historical roots that led to the splits, starting with Luther, and it's important and it's, I think, the funny thing is, most people that are from the separated brethren or the denominations, most people don't understand their own history. They don't even know where they came from. They don't know who their founding community was right, whether it's the disciples of Christ or whether it's the Jehovah's Witness or any of those. Do they really understand that your typical person sitting in the pew doesn't really know their own history, which makes it very difficult because Then you really can't enter into dialogue with them until they they understand their own history.
Speaker 2:And I think there's probably because that you can say that same exact thing about all the pew potatoes in a Catholic church.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah like yeah, I'm culturally Catholic.
Speaker 2:That's the only thing I know. But, I don't understand any of it and.
Speaker 2:I, and so I wonder and maybe we can come back to this towards the end too but I have a feeling that there's gonna be a certain group of people within Christianity who are like I don't know, I'm just make some up that I've been attending the oh Gosh, whatever you know, I'm a nickel church Bible, yeah, whatever thing you know, and something feels off, and so I'm gonna go start my own thing in pursuit of Something, and that that's something that you're pursuing. That they're they're searching for Might be an important Motivation as well.
Speaker 1:All right right.
Speaker 2:So what's the and and maybe that you know we can take that back to in history too, like what's that root cause of schism? Because that's been playing out Forever and it might still be applicable to modern times too, with within all the different Protestant denominations or not Catholic Christian denominations, I think it's, it's other.
Speaker 1:Fundamentally, I think that the most fun, the, the easiest phrase would be a bubble mentality, and by that I mean you're so enclosed in your own stance that you're not willing to consider Another stance, you're not willing to be objective about your own stance, you're not willing to Consider that. May be, my stance is a little skewed. And the first, you know, going back to the first Rift in Christianity, which had to do between the east and the west, again it was theological and political, it was. It was also cultural, social and there's a lot of things that were contributing to To those things. And I think, fundamentally what happened was the emperors, the got involved and again it was a politic, was a politicization of Religion, right, and that got to be something, an ugly thing. That happened right, and that's why the east and the west split because, as I said, that they wanted to get together and they tried to get together and they even did sign a document, but the emperor from Constantinople, from Byzantine, the Byzantine Empire, refused for various reasons. Right, and so that was the first break.
Speaker 1:And Still they are a real church, a full church, they have full sacraments, they have a priesthood, they have all those things that we recognize and, theologically speaking, they are the closest to us and and as I've said before, we're in the same house. We're just not speaking to each other, whereas the others are like Some people are in the same neighborhood and some people I don't know where they're at, just I have no idea. You know whether you know you're gonna be your own god on your own little planet somewhere. I'm like what?
Speaker 2:so, yeah, that's what we out there. What about even kind of those minor I guess you could call minor schisms, even before the east west split, because you have, like, the Coptic Church and the Ethiopian Ethiopian churches you know what I'm saying like, some of those were heresies, right?
Speaker 1:So those are the sex and the heresies having to do with how we understand the sacred humanity of Jesus as true God and true man. And so, and there's there there is, that I mean the other theological heresies that lead to schisms, right.
Speaker 2:So what are they pursuing? Do you think it's the pursuit of truth, or is that just another kind of manifestation of what Luther was getting at?
Speaker 1:It's another again. I think it's another manifestation of Luther's stance that this is my understanding and you're not going to. You're not going to persuade me to change my understanding of this, like whether, for example, the fact that some in the early heresies that Jesus never really had the true human body, he never really was incarnated, that he one of them is, that Jesus, or the second person of the Trinity, the Son of God, inhabited the body of Jesus of Nazareth at the baptism in the Jordan, instead of being true God and true man in the conception right, in the virginal conception of in Mary's womb. So there's that heresy, right. And then there's a heresy that the other heresy again was that and also the Son of God left the body of Jesus before the crucifixion, so that Jesus of Nazareth died but not the Son of God, did not suffer any suffering. There's no suffering or pain, right. And so like there's all sorts of things that weird things that were never part of the apostolic tradition.
Speaker 1:Again going back to apostolic tradition and the necessity of apostolic tradition to keep us faithful to Christ's gospel, the good news, right. And so a lot of that is that. A lot of it is a lot of times people are arguing out of a situation that they don't really understand or not willing to consider other things, for example, the big fight between the East and the West on whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father or the Son, right, yep, and so the big argument and going like, really, really so, if you'd really honestly and truly believe what you say, you're believing that there was never an instant when there was no Father. There was never an instant when there was no Father, no Son or no Holy Spirit. In other words, from the there's always. The God has always been three persons. Why are you arguing?
Speaker 2:Where originates from?
Speaker 1:where it's where the Holy Spirit is proceeding from, if there was never a moment that it didn't exist. So I go like it's. It's polemics, it's semantics. You're looking for a reason to fight. And if you're looking for a reason to fight, you're going to find one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Jesus made it very clear in his prayer in the Gospel of John for unity like that. His desire is unity between the Christian. You know the church that would would follow, do you think so? So if I was a bishop because some of those like I was saying, some of the or what you were saying, the heresies that happened were kind of schisms occurred. There were a lot of bishops who were following those.
Speaker 2:They were the ones who were the heretics, right, right? So do you think we have a lack of trust in God, or is it a desire, or like a fear of power, like I'm afraid that those people who are in power there's more of them and I'm more afraid that they, that I'm right, you know, I'm saying it like I'm afraid, I'm right and it's going to, I guess, let me say like this is my fear that I am right and they are wrong greater than my trust in God? You know, and that's why I think I think there's some of that.
Speaker 1:I think there is some of that, but I think also the personality is involved to you, so that if you have someone who is stubborn, right and bullheaded, are they going to be open to correction? Are they? Are they capable of considering what is being presented to them right? So recently, when, when I was confronted about something, I had to really step back and seriously consider what was presented to me. Right, I go like, oh, I need to look. I don't know if this is true, I don't know if it's not, but I need to be objective enough to sit back and consider that possibility, because that's the only way you stay faithful is by am I willing to consider this possibility and what does it mean for me in my journey with the Lord and my discipleship? And so, is there any correction that I need to do? Again Is that we've talked before in other episodes that God has made us self-corrective so that I can correct my course, I can correct my journey, and so I think this is something that some of these people have lacked.
Speaker 1:They have lacked the ability to seriously consider what is being presented to them, like, yeah, your understanding of Jesus is wrong, your understanding of the sacred humanity is wrong. Your understanding of the hypostatic union is wrong and it's off. This is not what has been taught to us, this is not part of our tradition, and so this is something that needs to be considered, and I think that's where it is, and I think it's a mixture of I don't want, I believe that I'm right and I don't want to lose sight of the rightness right that I believe in. But secondly too, then what can fall into this and this complicates things is then you have the martyr complex. Well, I'm suffering because I am right, instead of like I'm suffering because, no, because you're dumb, you're, you know, yeah, and I tell people, you know, if people don't like you, it's not because you're a martyr, it's because maybe you're not likeable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe there's something there that you need to work on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but they're not willing to consider that, and I think that's where the problem is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's like there's no part in scripture and as far as I can tell, there's no part in apostolic tradition that says if you are right and everyone else is wrong, you leave. Like I can think of things in Paul's letters where he's like the guy who's wrong, kick him out, let him come back right. Right, like in a super paraphrasing right, because excommunication is supposed to be a healing type thing, right, it's not a punishment, right.
Speaker 1:And again. But excommunication is something that the person does to themselves and basically, excommunication just basically calling out the fact, like you have separated yourself and you're separate from us. So if you want to come back to us, you need to re-examine your status or your stance, like, for example, the same thing that happened with Luther when he was asked to come to Rome and to defend himself. But the German princes wouldn't allow that to happen because they wanted to keep the situation the way it was, because it was beneficial to them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So then it's just a formal recognition of the thing that has happened.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's already existed Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So then when we get to the Renaissance and I still think that there's something there that is playing out today this kind of shift from the of a monarch I can't say it a monarchy type system to the individual.
Speaker 1:Monarchical.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that one, the where power or where value, I guess, lies. Maybe it's not even power, but where value lies, right, because you were saying how the merchant or the artisan was at the same level as the prince or the king right and value Right, right. I think there's just some Because there was that breakdown.
Speaker 1:It was like first it was the regnum in the Satridoetium right you had the two arms of the same body.
Speaker 1:You had the secular arm, which was the regnum, and the religious arm, which was the Satridoetium, and then, all of a sudden, the regnum started fighting against the Satridoetium, and then, as things started developing and nations started forming and you have modern states and modern nations, and then you have the Renaissance, and all of a sudden you don't have a structured body. Now you have everybody's equal, everybody's of the same value, whether it's the artisan or the noble, and so that already starts to question things. And so if that starts questioning society, of course it's going to come into how we deal with each other in terms of faith and religion, as well it affects that right.
Speaker 1:So all those are parts of that contributing factors.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because now we have those were the seeds that set the stage for Luther being able to say well, wait a minute. I can interpret, I can define, I can do, I can throw out what I don't like, and I can keep what I like I can do this Right.
Speaker 1:Right, which was again a revolutionary step in thanking in terms for us as Catholics to. And again, I shouldn't say that there are parameters within which we have ability to interpret scripture and talk about theological speculation. So there is speculative theology and that's permissible within the church within certain parameters. But I think his insistence was this is my interpretation and you can't tell me that I'm wrong, because this is my personal interpretation of this word and by doing that, what he's done is he's placing himself outside of the community and outside of the apostolic authority that has been part of our church from the tradition, in terms of what are the parameters within which we are allowed to enter into speculative theology concerning scripture or just the nature of redemption and justification? And so then, of course, with that, with his insistence on the personal interpretation of scripture, then all of a sudden you have his understanding of the fallen nature and the corruption of the human soul, and so the inability of the person to actually come to justification, to Catholic understanding of justification, and all those things. It comes back to that insistence that I'm right and you can't tell me that I'm not right. And it goes back to something we talked about earlier, when somebody tells you, God told me.
Speaker 1:That is such an absolutist argument. How can you argue against that? Well, God told me. Well, that's not what he told me. Well, there you are. There you go there. You have a fight between God told me and God told you. And so who's right? We have to agree to disagree Exactly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just see it, that problem with authority seems to have just continued because, if we think of some of our other history or historical type episodes like I think, what happened in France? What happened in England?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the inability to submit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's so. Yeah, I think there's this root lack of trust and this root issue with authority or this pride. I guess that I can be the authority and I can just, you know, it just seems to have just continued and continued and continued into the modern time and, to a degree and I was saying this the last time too it's because there are parts of what they're getting after is true. You are as valuable as the King is. Yes, like there's all of that is true, and Jesus even exemplified that in how he spoke to the people during his ministry.
Speaker 1:You are as important as the King, but you don't have the qualifications and the quality to be King. So I mean, if you're going to put a baker to run the nation, well, yeah, they're both equally in the eyes of God, in the eyes of you know our understanding.
Speaker 1:They're equally dignified persons, right. But also, what are the qualifications? You have the qualification to make an absolutely wonderful fluffy, buttery croissant, but you have absolutely no idea of foreign policy. So it doesn't mean that you can be, or you should be, king, right, and so that's part of the thing is and Paul talks about this in the body like you know the foot can't be the eye and the eye can't be the heart.
Speaker 1:Everybody has their part to play in this matter of that, and so I think what gets confusing for some people is that my idea is equal in value to your idea. Okay, but I understand that. But you know you have a level of education understanding that is not equal to mine, or mine is not equal to yours, whichever way. So our understanding, our statements, don't carry the same value. They're just important, right, as a human person, but they don't have the same value if we don't have the same education and the same understanding of things, right? Which gets me back to one of my pet peeves is when some of you have these theologians on podcasts trying to muster up and to argue and to split and divide people because they're making statements to people who don't have theological degrees and don't really understand the theology that is involved in those statements, and so you're manipulating people, and that just makes me so angry, like yeah, you shouldn't do that and I can, and with that in two, I've seen some very good content creators out there.
Speaker 2:Well, I say, they have very good, sound theology. But if you are, I've even seen where people are trying to push back against descent and schism under the banner of unity, but they're doing it in such a way that's so divisive and grumpy or angry or whatever to where it's like well, I don't want to listen to that either.
Speaker 1:Right, and it's all part of that whole bubble mentality, right, that whole rabbit hole thing right. It's sort of like I don't want to listen to anybody else that doesn't think like me. Well, okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I think there's a cause, there's something in the Bible about you know what, if you sell, if you greet only your brother, what virtue is there in that?
Speaker 2:I mean, oh yeah, even the sinners do the same kind of thing. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Somewhere in scripture. I think somewhere there's also and this is actually a really kind of good thing too, because when it says Catholics who already have a proper grounding like I keep thinking about this now because it doesn't say Catholics who already have a proper education it says grounding that can encapsulate a whole lot, and spiritually, that's why are you trying to help get the spec out of your brother's eye when you've got the beam in yours, exactly. And so I think, like with denominationalism in the US, I wonder if we don't even need to. If that proper grounding and the need to acquire adequate understanding, what's? There's some saying somewhere in whatever it is I'm going to butcher it, but it's like every Protestant is their own Pope, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. So because I can interpret things however I want, I guess more accurately it would be every Protestant's their own magisterium.
Speaker 1:Right, Because even within, for example, the Baptist congregation, right the Baptist, they have like the Southern Baptist Conference and I think I hear about that I go like, wait, you can't do that. That's each church is. Each church is autonomous from every other church. You can belong to the conference or not belong to the conference, but you can't tell me I'm not Baptist, because it's not up to you. Each Baptist church is its own church, separate from the others. I mean that is the congregational thing and so when they have also and so is kicked out of the Baptist conference and they're still Baptists, they just don't belong to the conference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, Because if you belong or follow one of those congregationalist kind of mentalities, then in essence you're a bunch of individuals. It's very Republican, it's from like a governmental standpoint, not like the party, but it's like we come together and we share these values. Yeah, enough to cooperate, to listen to this one guy, but if any of us have a difference of opinion, we can leave or he can leave right, Just depends on the only one feeling this way or right?
Speaker 1:Oh, we all feel that way, right? Or if we're all going to agree that that guy needs to go, yeah, exactly Right and I think there's a again.
Speaker 2:there's that sense of pride I've noticed for myself. When I struggle with pride, it's always. It's in some ways it's the most common sin, but it is the most understated like subtle, it's the most personal, it's disguised. There's other things that are manifesting, that are a consequence of the pride. I'm not seeing the pride itself, right.
Speaker 2:So sometimes it's hard to see it, and so I think maybe in some ways, going back to our relationship episodes, the best way to cataclyse your family and your neighbors and your friends and to be an agent of healing in the world is to just form those actual strong relationships, and you're man, if you only get one your whole life, that's better than a thousand shallow ones.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:It's interesting stuff.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, yeah, it connects to everything and it's just some people don't recognize or understand or realize that, for example, recent and I, yeah, I don't like to talk about recent cultural events, I just don't want to go there. There's other people that make lots of money doing that and have podcasts and everything, and that's up to them and that's fine for them. But I mentioned this in one of our previous episodes this whole idea of Christian nationalism in the United States and like what?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I remember, because I didn't know what that was.
Speaker 1:Kind of like what the hell? Yeah, and if you don't know what I'm referring to, what the hell? There's a toddler, a. Youtube video a toddler that learns to say what the hell that's. It's become my favorite saying now Thank.
Speaker 2:Betty for that the cat wearing a costume or something.
Speaker 1:And it's just always weird, yeah, and so when I heard about that, I go like okay, so, but that doesn't unify anybody, because Christianity in the United States obviously they don't mean Catholics, right, so they don't include us in this. So if you have national Christian movement, like okay, but who's understanding of Christianity you're talking about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, who's in, who's out? What rules?
Speaker 1:Evangelicals? Congregational, what Non-denominational? Unitary, what are you talking about? And so that's? That's scary. That is very scary. What's funny, though, is that the same people were terrified about the fact when John F Kennedy was was elected president. They thought that the pope was going to to rule the United.
Speaker 2:States.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so obviously there's certain Christianity that is acceptable and some that is not. So anyway, and it goes back to the whole idea of the plethora of denominations in the United States. There's so many, many, many denominations and splinter groups and storefront churches in the United States. It's terrible because obviously it's a sign of something wrong in the culture in the United States.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's you know how. Conversion is a lifelong process. I would say equally, submission is a lifelong process.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So my wife and I and you know Paul says why I've submitted to your husbands as he submits to Christ, kind of thing. Again, paraphrasing, our relationship and our marriage should grow over time as we continue our submission, right, right, and I think that is something that we need to consider. When we man, just as we're living our lives, as we're in line at the grocery store or on the highway during rush hour or at work, when the guy's really driving you crazy, kind of thing, how am I submitting my life to Christ in this moment? How am I listening more than I'm talking? How do I reflect Christ to the people around me? Because those are the things I think that will draw people closer to the truth, because we don't convert people, we don't heal people. That's not my job, that's the job, that's the work of the Holy Spirit. Right, jesus converts people, right, and I think we like to think of this one and done Like I checked the box, I'm good now.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And I think we maybe need to move away from that as a culture.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, definitely the due culture, right, I've done that. Okay, the task right, the task orientation I did that. And so I think maybe I'm sitting here thinking about maybe the real cause of division in the United States and within the church is the lack of humility. The more I think about it, it's just a lot, and by humility I mean the humility that St Teresa of Jesus the way Teresa of Jesus defines it is to stand in the truth, right? So the humility is that. You know, do I have the objectivity to genuinely seek out the truth and am I willing to consider that, in my search for the truth, my understanding or my perspective might be skewed or might be lacking, and do I have the humility to educate myself and allow myself to be educated and formed to come to a deeper understanding a fuller understanding, not the fullest, not until we cross over a fuller understanding of what the truth really is?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and those virtues they stand opposed to sin right.
Speaker 1:Yes, so that humility.
Speaker 2:I think you're right on, because that humility is the opposite of pride, right? And I think there's something there that we all need to look at. Well, thanks for chewing on this with me. I appreciate it. This has been a really, really good episode. Thank you for doing this, even though you're sick and you're laying there with your IV.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's my turn to be feeling under the weather, finally. So, but we made it. Yes, all right, everybody joined us. Thanks for joining us. Thank you Please share the podcast with others, especially anyone you think who might benefit from just listening to two guys talking about stuff so Catholic stuff, yeah. So thanks for joining us and we cannot wait to see you all next time.
Speaker 1:God bless, hasta later. Bye.