Have you ever pondered what it means to stand before the God at life's end? Join us as we explore this mystery with Father Stephen Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelite priest, whose insights into the Catholic tradition's views on the afterlife and final judgment are nothing short of illuminating. We scrutinize the intimate moment of personal judgment, where the sum of our earthly lives is unveiled before God's eyes. Delving into the depths of Matthew's sheep and goats parable, we reveal how our choices resonate into eternity. Lent's culmination in Easter is cast in a new light as we discuss the 'transitus'—our soul's passage from death to eternal life with God, and the profound contrast between the fates of the redeemed and the condemned.
Embrace a transformative journey through the lens of eschatology, as we discuss the anticipation of encountering Christ in His full glory. Our conversation turns to the mystical communion awaiting believers, drawing upon the wisdom of Colossians 3 and Lumen Gentium to unwrap the sublime union between Christ and His Church. The communion of saints emerges as a transcendent bond uniting us in spirit and love, as we navigate through the Church's earthly mission. As our epoch edges closer to its ultimate renewal, we examine the present sanctity of the Church and the Holy Spirit's guiding presence in leading us toward the heavenly kingdom's promise. This episode is a profound reflection on our existence's final chapters and the anticipation of the life to come.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Have you ever pondered what it means to stand before the God at life's end? Join us as we explore this mystery with Father Stephen Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelite priest, whose insights into the Catholic tradition's views on the afterlife and final judgment are nothing short of illuminating. We scrutinize the intimate moment of personal judgment, where the sum of our earthly lives is unveiled before God's eyes. Delving into the depths of Matthew's sheep and goats parable, we reveal how our choices resonate into eternity. Lent's culmination in Easter is cast in a new light as we discuss the 'transitus'—our soul's passage from death to eternal life with God, and the profound contrast between the fates of the redeemed and the condemned.
Embrace a transformative journey through the lens of eschatology, as we discuss the anticipation of encountering Christ in His full glory. Our conversation turns to the mystical communion awaiting believers, drawing upon the wisdom of Colossians 3 and Lumen Gentium to unwrap the sublime union between Christ and His Church. The communion of saints emerges as a transcendent bond uniting us in spirit and love, as we navigate through the Church's earthly mission. As our epoch edges closer to its ultimate renewal, we examine the present sanctity of the Church and the Holy Spirit's guiding presence in leading us toward the heavenly kingdom's promise. This episode is a profound reflection on our existence's final chapters and the anticipation of the life to come.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the my Friend the Friar podcast and thanks for listening. If you like my Friend the Friar and want to support us, please consider subscribing or following us. If you haven't already done so, and if you found us on YouTube, then don't forget to click the notification bell when you subscribe so you'll be notified of new episodes when they release. Thanks again and God bless. The Lord be with you and with your spirit. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the Friar. Father Stephen Sanchez, a disc house Carmelite priest, and Bertha maybe We'll see how long she sticks around. Good morning, Father. Good morning. It is chilly outside. I love it again, again. I know I thought we were just past this. Actually, wait until um, after easter, then we'll be having that conversation. I thought we were over.
Speaker 2:
Yes, the cold yes, yes, yes, the cold, yes, yes, there have been frosty Easters in the past.
Speaker 1:
Yeah so we're continuing our discussion. Sorry, Bertha's rubbing on the microphone stand and I have no idea if you can hear it, but it's kind of cute probably finishing our discussion on final judgment and where we left off last time. Where we left off last time, we were discussing where God does it for our judgment. Right, Our judgment, God is pronouncing what we have manifested. Basically, he's not Right. Right, God is pronouncing what we have manifested basically he's not Right.
Speaker 2:
Right, we talked about historical eschatology, cosmic eschatology, and then we're talking about individual eschatology.
Speaker 1:
Yep.
Speaker 2:
And then we're talking about again what we call particular judgment.
Speaker 1:
Yep. Oh, and happy Lent, by the way.
Speaker 2:
Happy Lent to you. Yeah, Just realized first time we've recorded during Lent.
Speaker 1:
Well, it's Lent, by the way. Happy Lent to you. Yeah, just realized first time we've recorded during Lent. Well, it's Lent right now for us. Who knows, whenever you listen to this it's probably not Lent anymore, but we hope you're having a good Lent too. Whenever that was and I guess quick plug we've got some really cool Lent episodes for people to go check out. We've got. Sacred Tr, uh, sacred Twitter. One was our first kind of like pilot episode. That's cool. And then we've got pray fast. Give last year was great.
Speaker 1:
So, go check those out. Give yourself something to consider and contemplate for Lent. Yeah, yeah, all right. Enough of that nonsense, take us away.
Speaker 2:
So we were, uh, the last time we spoke we spoke on the gospel passage from Matthew, in the particular judgment, where in Matthew's gospel you have all nations that have to come before the Lord, before Christ, the King, and that the King will pronounce judgment. And we talked about how each individual brings with themselves their life, their existence, their fundamental choice, life choice, and that the King doesn't make somebody a sheep and make somebody a goat, but that they actually come already with that and basically the Lord just acknowledges that truth. And we spoke a little bit about how that is almost similar to excommunication, where you basically excommunicate yourself and basically the church just acknowledges that truth. Right.
Speaker 1:
Yep.
Speaker 2:
Right. So, continuing on, then, in terms of the personal judgment, um, then at the end, at the end of my particular temporal existence, I will stand before the lord and he will pronounce the obvious continuation of my existence. That is the way in which I have lived. My life will bear fruit, either the fruit of an existence as a son of God, by adoption, or the fruit of my temporal existence will be that of excommunication or being away from God, or not in communion with Father, son and Spirit, because of the way I have lived my life, because of my decisions right. And that is why, in our Catholic tradition, when we speak of death, we speak of the transitus, the transition from one mode of existence into the ultimate mode of existence. And you'll see this a lot, it's still very present. When Franciscans talk about the death of Francis, they talk about the transitus, right. They don't talk about his death, they talk about his transition from death to life, his death to talk about his transition from death to life.
Speaker 2:
So, as I stand before the king in my personal, particular judgment, I may still have to account for certain things that I brought into being that were not in keeping with my status as an adopted son or as a steward son or as a steward. And if I have been repentant for those things, I will be cleansed. I will be purged of those things before I am allowed to enter into God's presence. If I have been unfaithful to my status as an adopted son through Jesus Christ, through the grace of my baptism, then how can I expect to be treated as an adopted son if I have not lived that right? So that's kind of the consequence of choices, kind of stance right. If I have cut myself off from God, then the consequence of that is that an eternal separation. Then the consequence of that is that an eternal separation.
Speaker 2:
And one of the things that during our Lenten observance right is that, if you think of in terms of like a compilation right, so like, all of my Lents that lead to my Easter celebration are continuations or compilations. So basically, as I continue my journey, eventually at the end of my life I will reach the end of that compilation of all my Lenten observances and hopefully all my Easter observances, so that I come to the perpetual Easter celebration, which is to be with the Lord. So at the end of time, when the Lord comes in glory, surrounded by his angels, each individual will regain their body, that will be transformed, and the redeemed will enjoy a never-ending existence in which the body participates in the condemned they will participate. A never-ending existence in which the body participates in the condemned. They will participate or they will experience an eternal separation from the one and only source of happiness, god himself.
Speaker 2:
So not only will mankind be judged, but all of creation will be judged, visible and invisible, we're told about. Creation will be judged, visible and invisible, we're told about. All of creation will be judged by fire, right, the element of fire. So all of creation will be purified. So we don't understand exactly fully what that means, but that's what we believe in, because that's what scripture tells us. So then, that's part of the whole cosmic eschatology, where all of creation will have to be judged.
Speaker 1:
When judged is now, especially after the first part where you were saying God does not determine if you're a sheep or a goat.
Speaker 1:
He's just declaring what is it's almost this funny play on words because God, like you, only exist, because he wills it, because he holds you in his mind, because he holds all of reality in his mind, correct, so his thought is reality. So if he wanted you to turn into I don't know my Little Pony or something, right, yeah, like he could do it, right, I don't know my Little Pony or something, right, like he could do it, right. So then it's like he would be judging that that's what he wants you to be kind of thing, right? So now I think about this with creation. He's not, he created everything and the.
Speaker 1:
Bible says and it was good Right.
Speaker 2:
So another way of yeah, another way of thinking of it, the purification of it, another way of thinking of that would be that creation will be healed of its fallenness. So that's another way of examining that or considering that. So when Paul tells us, all of creation groans in anticipation for the revelation of the sons of God, what he's talking about is that the fall was a cosmic fall. So the fall that Adam and Eve caused was a fall that had consequences that were cosmic. And so, when the Lord comes in glory, that that also has cosmic consequences. And that cosmic consequence is then the healing of creation, or the going back to the original design of that. Even beyond the original design, and in the new design, the redeemed design, we will live as adopted children through the grace of baptism, so we'll participate in the communion of Father, son and Spirit.
Speaker 2:
So, yeah, the language can be a little, um, confusing, right? You know the judge, you know the earth will be judged. Oh, okay, yeah, but okay, but what does that mean? It means be purified, uh, so that's basically what he's trying to get at yeah, I don't think god's like.
Speaker 1:
I didn't like allergies after all, so I'm gonna take those out. You know, or mosquitoes or something. I don't think that's what he's he's getting at dolphins.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, don't touch the dolphins um, let me ask a?
Speaker 1:
um, a clarifying question here, though, before we move forward, because this is the kind of thing that betty would always. This is like. I love the way she thinks, because it makes me go. I've've never considered it like that before, so now I have to try to understand what you're asking. So then, hell, eternal separation is not destruction. You don't cease to exist, you just cease to exist. You cannot exist with God, right that's the separation part Right, so your soul is not obliterated, or? Whatever Annihilated right or annihilated, yeah.
Speaker 2:
You continue to exist. And again, now we're talking about speculative theology, now we're talking about what is going to actually happen, right? Hans Urs von Balthasar wrote a book Dare we Hope. I think it's called Dare we Hope. I haven't read it yet. It's on my list of books to read. But John Paul II asked von Balthasar to write on eschatology, right, because John Paul II trusted his theology, von Balthasar's theology, and asked him to write this question, to write on this question. We're going to go off on a tangent for a minute here.
Speaker 2:
It's book review, movie review time, yeah so ages and ages and ages and ages ago, and I don't have the article. I wish I would have printed it and kept it. I did print it. I just wish I would have kept it because I would like to go back to that or find it again. There's an article written by an Orthodox priest and I forget if the title was Could Love Endure or Would Love Endure right? And the question was this, and it's a very thought-provoking theological question, and the question that he raised was if God's desire is that all creation be saved, then the fact that the fallen angels cannot be redeemed and the fact that there are individuals who will not be redeemed and they're separated from God, the question that he raised was would not that mean that God's will would be forever, for the rest of eternity, frustrated?
Speaker 1:
That.
Speaker 2:
God's will for salvation would be frustrated because these people are not saved. And I went like what? I had to sit back and sit with that for a while and then I presented it to my community because I was superior at the community I was at and I presented this article like this is something for us to think of. It was like maybe a four or five page article. It was very well presented, it was very thought provoking and I'm like, wow, this is something to think about. Right, what does this mean? And every one of the novices was very upset with me.
Speaker 2:
His father, we don't believe in universalism. I said I'm not. No, we don't. We don't believe that Satan is going to be saved. We don't believe that. We don't believe that no matter what you do, you're going to be saved. No, we don't believe that. That's called universalism. I go, but you don't understand. This is an interesting theological question. So that if God wills for all to be saved and if I've never thought about it so obviously this Orthodox priest did, and I've never thought about it so obviously this Orthodox priest did, no-transcript.
Speaker 1:
That's kind like Hmm, does he? Does he try to grapple with it in the article? Hmm?
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and he just basically presents it right. And this is why the question is would love endure that? Could love endure that? If God is love, then how do we reconcile these things? And it was a very, very interesting speculation. So, again, I don't know what von Balthasar's questions are or his speculations or considerations are. I haven't read that book yet. I intend to, that's one of the things I will be doing. But again, the very question that you asked, you know what happens to these souls, these persons, these individuals who would be eternally separated from God or frustrated, right? And I think, do we refer to the greatce last episode, cs Lewis's?
Speaker 1:
I think so because we talked about it recently.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, we referred to that right where in CS Lewis's book the Great Divorce, where it deals with purgation and hell, with purgation and hell and those people in purgatory. The way the story unfolds is that these people in purgatory, eventually they leave purgatory and go on to the blessed realm, and those that are condemned they wind up moving further and further and further away from each other because basically hell is no communion right, so that they're completely and totally isolated and they continue to enter deeper into their isolation right, which is basically like non-being. But anyway, that's a good question that Betty raises. It's a good speculation Like well, what does that mean? We're not going to be annihilated? So what does it mean? When the scripture says you know death will be no more? Well, death will be thrown into the eternal fire, right? So does that mean okay? So what does that mean that death is killed? Yeah, yeah is killed.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah, well, and this is, this is a good example, and then we can, we can move on, so we don't get too far a tangent, but this is a good example of the church only declares or pronounces where it's appropriate for it to do so.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 1:
When we know from Jesus, from God, what something is, and then it's okay to have gray areas. We can not know stuff, and that's all right, yeah, and it's okay.
Speaker 2:
Yes, exactly, exactly, exactly. So. Continuing on, then, about the judgment right, the personal judgment, the personal eschaton. What the human person awaits is not just Jesus or not just Christ himself, but what we are looking forward to, or what the transition into that next life is about, is that we will actually encounter Christ in the fullness of His being, in the fullness of His manifestation. Not only His manifestation to us, but also the fact that he dwells within us means that we will come to understand the manifestation within each one of us, within the communion of saints, within the church, and his presence within the entire cosmos, how he is present in everything as creator right, as the word of creation, God's word right. And so, if we go to Colossians 3, verses 3 and 4, we have here, for you have died and your life now lies hidden with Christ in God, but when Christ, our life, appears, then you shall appear with him in glory. And at times you know we read that and it's a beautiful idea, it's a beautiful statement, but to actually sit and think about the fact that—to unpack that theological statement is something that would take a lot of time and consideration Christ in us and that we are incorporated into His body. He is our head, this whole mystical body, this whole idea of belonging to Christ and being part of His body, and that he is our head. All of that is something to consider when we talk about the eschaton and the fact that Jesus is coming right and the fullness of his glory, and it's much more than you know, like the whole caricature of, you know, having angel wings and playing harps. It is. It's going to be an eternal adventure, discovering continuously the love of God, because of God, not because if, question mark, but if, then so then if God is eternal, then his love is eternal, then our experience of that love is going to be eternal, but not an eternal stasis, but an eternal deepening. So we're going to continuously be falling into the depth of his love for us, which is eternal, and we'll be continuously experiencing that continual fullness which is just mind-boggling to think that that's what that is going to be about the communion with Father, son and Spirit. So pause.
Speaker 2:
I would like to talk a little bit about one of the documents from the Second Vatican Council. Lumen Gentium, the conciliar fathers remind us that the church will only be perfected at the end of time, when all things shall be fully restored Until the Lord comes in glory. We disciples His disciples are divided up into different stages. We talked a little bit about this at the last episode. We're in different stages of our pilgrimage, growing towards that perfection, that maturity in Christ, towards the heavenly Jerusalem.
Speaker 2:
There are some members of our community that are already enjoying the beginnings of glory with Jesus Christ. We call that the church triumphant. There are some members of our community that are being purified before joining their brothers in the glory. We call those part of the church suffering. And there are some members of our community that are still in the earthly part of their journey. We refer to them as, or refer to ourselves as, church militant. But all members of these communities, whether they're in the beginnings of glory, whether they're in being purified or those that are still in the earthly journey, they're all united by the same spirit of love. So it is all one community in that. Sometimes it's hard for us to remember that. We need to remind ourselves of that, that that's what the communion of saints is about. That's what the church is trying to teach us.
Speaker 2:
So let me read this from Lumen Gentium, the dogmatic constitution of the church. From Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, and this is from chapter 7, and this is number 48 from Lumen Gentium. The Church to which we are all called in Christ Jesus, and in which we acquire sanctity through the grace of God, will attain its full perfection only in the glory of heaven, when there will come the time of the restoration of all things, all of creation. At that time, the human race, as well as the entire world, which is intimately related to man and attains to its end through him, will be perfectly re-established in Christ. Christ, having been lifted up from the earth, has drawn all to himself. Rising from the dead, he sent his life-giving spirit upon his disciples and through him, has established his body, which is the church, as the universal sacrament of salvation. Sitting at the right hand of the Father, he is continually active in the world. That he might lead men, humanity, to the church and through it, through the church, join them to himself, and that he might make them partakers of his glorious life by nourishing them with his own body and blood.
Speaker 2:
Getting back to the episode you recently recorded, too, on that right. Getting back to the episode you recently recorded to you on that right. Therefore, the promised restoration which we are awaiting has already begun in Christ, is carried forward in the mission of the Holy Spirit and, through him, continues in the Church, in which we learn the meaning of our terrestrial life through our faith, while we perform, with hope in the future, work committed to us in this world by the Father and thus work out our salvation. So that's a lot to unpack, but I don't know if you want to come back and re-unpack this later, but let me continue on with this next part of 48.
Speaker 2:
Okay, already the final age of the world has come upon us. That means that with the incarnation, this is the final age of man, right, we've already in. This is the last stage, right? So already the final age of the world has come upon us and the renovation of the world is irrevocably depending on what part of the country you're from and the renovation of the world is irrevocably decreed and is already anticipated in some kind of a real way. For the Church, us already on this earth is signed, marked, signed with a sanctity which is real although imperfect.
Speaker 2:
However, until there shall be new heavens and a new earth in which justice dwells, the pilgrim church, in her sacraments and institutions which pertain to this present time has the appearance of this world which is passing, and she herself dwells among creatures who groan and travail in pain until now and await the revelation of the sons of God, joined with Christ in the church and signed with the Holy Spirit, who is the pledge of our inheritance.
Speaker 2:
Truly, we are called and we are sons of God, but we have not yet appeared with Christ in glory in which we shall be like to God, since we shall see him as he is and, therefore, while we are in the body, we are exiled from the Lord and, having the firstfruits of the Spirit, we groan within ourselves and we desire to be with Christ, quoting Paul.
Speaker 2:
By that same charity, however, we are urged to live more for him who died for us and rose again again.
Speaker 2:
We strive, therefore, to please God in all things and we put on the armor of God that we may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil and resist in the evil day.
Speaker 2:
Since, however, we know not the day nor the hour, on our Lord's advice, we must be constantly vigilant so that, having finished the course of our earthly life, we may merit to enter into the marriage feast with him and be numbered among the blessed, and that we may not be ordered to go into eternal fire like the wicked and the slothful servant, into the exterior darkness where there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Speaker 2:
For before we reign with Christ in glory, all of us will be made manifest before the tribunal of Christ, so that each one may receive what he has won through the body, according to his works, whether good or evil. And at the end of the world, they who have done good shall come forth into resurrection of life, but those who have done evil unto resurrection of judgment. Reckoning, therefore, that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory to come that will be revealed in us. Strong in faith, we look for the blessed hope and the glorious coming of our great God and Savior, jesus Christ, who will refashion the body of our lowliness, conforming it to the body of his glory body of his glory and who will come to be glorified in his saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed.
Speaker 1:
I think we got to start digging into some of these Vatican II documents because some of them are just so beautiful. Yes, in two documents, because some of them are just so beautiful. Yes, it's almost poetic and it just especially the way I don't whichever priest or bishop was part of writing this particular part of this document way back in the day. God bless you, sir, because it was good.
Speaker 2:
It was really good.
Speaker 1:
The way they pulled scripture in at just the right times. Yes, sorry, not trying to do a literary analysis or a critique. Yeah, it makes you wonder. What is it going to be like, like you were saying, what would it be like to live in that existence of redeemed, of full redemption? The greatest expressions of love that I've ever experienced in my life was in contrast to the acts of unlove, right, yeah, pain or suffering or something negative, it shows how strong that action of love really was, and not just with Jesus but with any person in my life, that unworthiness being reflected by how great the love is. And so then, after that redemption, it's just love.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yeah. If we're awestruck by the miracle of love that we encounter in our earthly existence to the nth degree, right, how much more will that love be when we actually experience it in its fullness, right In its source?
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and just the full participation in it too. Right, trying to find it, but we're, you know we're. I don't know if it's the right way to say it, but we're at this point in existence.
Speaker 2:
Right.
Speaker 1:
We're like, we're divinized, almost that communion with God, like God to God. Through Jesus, our humanity is now something so much different than it is currently.
Speaker 2:
Right, right, right, right. So we've already begun. I remember hearing someone, a priest, say like our eternity has already begun at the font of baptism. Our immortal life has already begun in that. And I was going like, wow, I never thought about it that way, that it's already begun. I am God's son, or I am God's son or I am God's daughter, truly. And so my immortality has begun at the font. And so now, how am I living that? How am I stewarding that? And going back to the whole idea of how do we steward that gift of life that has been given to us in Jesus Christ? And so how am I spending my time? Right?
Speaker 2:
And the beautiful thing about this, this number from this document is it really sort of addresses all of all of the reality of it, like the brokenness of the church, like, yes, the church is holy, but she has the marks of this world because she is in this world and she won't be perfect until the Lord comes right, and so there's a lot of the only way I can say it is it's real. I mean, it's not like pie in the sky, kind of stuff. Like no, yeah, we're broken and wounded, but we're broken and wounded because we're in a broken wounded world and the church're in a broken wounded world, and the church, being in a broken wounded world, is also broken and wounded, but she's already signed with sanctity because of Christ. It's just not fully present yet, it's not fully realized yet.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, yeah. So if you could please, I guess, recap real quick. We've got the final judgment, the four last things Death, particular judgment, hell and heaven. Just kind of bring it all home for us.
Speaker 2:
Okay.
Speaker 2:
So when we talked about the eschaton, like, for example, during Advent, right, the last week of ordinary time we have a couple of weeks before we celebrate Christ the King, and the first week and a half or two weeks of Advent there's this theme of the last judgment, the eschaton.
Speaker 2:
And so the eschaton, the last things, things. So, theologically, philosophically, what's presented to us in the Catholic faith is that there is four last things for each individual, right, but also for all of creation, that is, that there's death, so all things must die. So then, after death, then there is the judgment. That's the second thing, right, we will be evaluated, right. So the evaluation of things, right, if you want to think of it that way. Then there is the evaluation, and then there is the consequence of the evaluation, which is either eternal separation, or hell, or eternal communing with Father, son and Spirit, which is heaven. So the four last things are death, judgment, whether it's particular or general, whether it's individual or of all the cosmos, and the consequence of that evaluation, which is either hell, separation, eternal separation or heaven, eternal communion with Father, son and Spirit.
Speaker 1:
And death can be thought of as a transition.
Speaker 2:
Transition, the transitus.
Speaker 1:
We enter into the consequence of our life, the life that we've lived and the judgment can be considered as the declaration of what is.
Speaker 2:
Yes, of what? The life that I've lived Right, correct.
Speaker 1:
Yep man, this is cool stuff. I appreciate you taking the time to enlighten.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, I can't wait till I read Bambathisar's book.
Speaker 1:
Yeah, and we got to find that article too.
Speaker 2:
I will, I keep looking, I just can't find it. I keep doing Google searches and I like All right, Well, everyone searches and I like All right.
Speaker 1:
Well, everyone thanks for joining us, father thanks as always, and we will see you all next time. God bless, god bless.