Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Welcome to the my Friend the Friar podcast and thanks for listening. If you like my Friend the Friar and want to support us, please consider subscribing or following us. If you haven't already done so, and if you found us on YouTube, then don't forget to click the notification bell when you subscribe so you'll be notified of new episodes when they release. Thanks again and God bless. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the friar, father Stephen Sanchez, the sleepiest Carmelite priest in the world. Good morning, jinx. You owe me a Coke, and like a Mexican bottle Coke too, not?
Speaker 2:like none of that. Canned stuff yeah, cane canned stuff. Yeah, cane sugar Coke yes.
Speaker 1:So much better. It's morning, it's the next day, it's the time change. Everything is wrong this morning, except for the internet. The internet's working better today than it was yesterday, when we were first doing this. It's because everyone's still asleep the whole world is still asleep. All right, so we're, we're, uh, we're continuing our discussion about the reality of satan and the spiritual reality of our existence, and where we left off was basically God wins, jesus wins, satan lost.
Speaker 2:Yes, the power of the devil or Satan, the fallen spirits, that their power is broken. Excuse me, because the kingship of God has already begun with Jesus Christ, right. The beginning with the incarnation and all that mystery of his life right. So that is the beginning of the end of the power of Satan and the fallen spirits.
Speaker 1:Yeah, before we jump in, have you ever? What is his name? Peter Kraft, kraft, kraft Kraft. Have you read his book on angels and demons? Yes, I have. Isn't he good? Yes, I've heard, I hear his name a lot. I've never. I think we even have some of his books, but I've never read one yet.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't particularly care for his writing style, but his information is good, his research is good, so, yeah, well, cool, I'll have to check it out. Yeah, I can loan you my copy if you want.
Speaker 1:It'll feel all extra. It'll either feel extra holy or extra dusty from sitting on the show.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I want to start this segment quoting some points made by Pascal Parenti, the author that I quoted in the last segment.
Speaker 2:These are some bullet points, five bullet points that he makes in his book. So the first bullet point is that, in view of the created and non-human character of these various spiritual personal principalities and powers, all that is affirmed of the natural essence of the angels or the spiritual beings must be ascribed to them too. So what he's trying to get across here is that, the nature. So what he's trying to get across here is that the nature, the spiritual nature of what we call angels, of the good angels and the fallen angels. It's the same nature, right? There's no difference in their nature, is what he's trying to get across, right?
Speaker 1:That's what he's trying to say, and is he also the, the? There is the hierarchy or tier of angels, right, the, the choirs, as we were saying in in our angel episode. Is that he's? Is he also saying that, basically, their essence is the same, no matter where they are in?
Speaker 2:the rank and we'll talk about this towards the end is that the whole idea of the hierarchy that comes from it starts with Jewish theology. Right, and again it's speculative, we don't know, but that's the way we organize and characterize that there's different ranks, right, right, and so this would be true too, that a fallen cherubim is still a cherubim, a fallen principality is still a principality, a fallen throne is still a throne. Right, we have to maintain with equal certainty the plurality of such non-human demonical powers. And what he's trying to get here is that it's not just one spirit, one fallen spirit, but because, according to our tradition, according to the speculative theology, according to the scriptures, right, the spirits that fell with Lucifer, that it's more than just one menacing evil spirit.
Speaker 2:The third point that he makes is they are to be thought of as having, in their personal meaning, unique according to each individual, having in their personal, purely spiritual nature that is not of the same kind as earthly space and time. They're not bound by space and time because they're spiritual, their purely spiritual nature, an essential natural and therefore personal relation to the world, to nature and so to the history of salvation and perdition. What he's getting at here is that one of the things in terms of God creating these spiritual beings that somehow he has connected them to creation as well, whether it's guardians them to creation as well, whether it's guardians. In Old Testament we have how angels are certain guardians of certain nations.
Speaker 2:We have all the battle and the confrontation of different angels and stuff in the Old Testament, and so what he's getting at here, then, is that somehow they are connected to creation and this is something that Tolkien brings up in his the first part of the Silmarillion, where he connects these spiritual beings to creation, and here he's saying that somehow they're part of God's greater plan in the history of salvation and in perdition, that is, that the fallen spirits are the ones that can tempt human persons to fall away to such a degree that they turn away from God. Not just a matter of sin, because we all fall in sin, but a genuine free will to turn completely against the creator right, which then is perdition to be lost.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love in the Cimmerillion. How is it Melkor who starts?
Speaker 2:Because in the Cimmerillion I can always forget their names, but there's like the ultimate god, melkor, is kind of like the Lucifer. Yeah, yeah, so there's the ultimate god.
Speaker 1:And then there's all the higher rank angels, which are like kind of quasi-demi-gods kind of thing, and they sing together and the song is what makes creation. But then Melkor and some of of the others, they sing in the discord between their not beautiful perfect song and the beautiful one comes together and it messes everything up but it makes reality and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:so it's really interesting the way that he constructed it. So that's why he couldn't, and that's why he connects those spiritual beings to creation, right, and this is what this other point is, that somehow they're connected, and I think, paul I think he talks about the spirit in the air, the spirits of the air, something like that Somehow they're connected to our creation, right? So I forget where that is. I'll have to look that up later. So then, another point that Parenti makes is that we can accept the commonly held view that devils had an objective finality directed to supernatural fulfillment, just like good angels, but renounced it. In other words, the supernatural fulfillment of what we call angelic beings, to give praise and glory to beings, was to give praise, to give praise and glory to God, to worship God, somehow be connected to us and our salvation journey and stuff. And so they had the same vocation or the same call, the same end, but they willingly rejected it, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what's interesting about that, too, is and I think we were talking about in the last time was how god still loves them. Yeah, thus, thus they exist, and because he allows them to exist and they are not god. His will is supreme. Like it will be done so they can't win anyway. So even their we'll just call it misdeeds, misbehavior, their, their, their, their skewed free will or their, their sinful free will, still works to achieve god's end.
Speaker 2:Like what the thing he wants, like no matter what they can't mess it up right, right and that I think, going back to the silmarillion, that's one of the things that lois tolkien presents. It is when god, after the third or fourth time that he presents a theme and melchor continues to rebel in his music right he finally stands up and he he addresses melchor.
Speaker 2:he says you know, you will find out that even your dissonance is part of the greater plan and so somehow that God is going to make this all work out for the betterment, right? So somehow this is part of—God can make it part of his greater plan in terms of salvation and redemption for humanity, which is interesting, right. It's like wow. Anyway, I don't want to get off into another tangent. So the final point I want to quote from Parenti is that from these principles that he's stated that the consequence or the logical point of this is that these spirits, through their own fault, have shut themselves off from a perfect fulfillment by God, and this is a definitive choice on their part. So, he says, the victory of Christ over sin as such is therefore the end of the power of the evil spirits.
Speaker 2:So part of, then, their fallenness and their stubbornness and their pride is they continue to do battle, trying to pervert God's will of our redemption by trying to tempt and to lead people astray, and to turn, willingly or willfully, against the Creator, right, so this is part of their plan, right, but the fact that Christ has come into the world through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, that that is, is no longer a reality.
Speaker 2:That human persons can choose to be lost or they can choose to be redeemed. Okay, and then I have another quote from Parenti, and that is being entirely free from passions and all sensitive appetites. The act of what he calls the angelic will is determined exclusively by what he calls the angelic mind, with the decision and the firmness that are final and, admit, of no reverse. It was exactly this quality of the angelic will, as some say, that made the fallen angels incapable of conversion and repentance. For an angel to sin is to assume an immutable attitude against God, an aversion that will never end. He thus becomes an adversary of God, a demon, and what he's getting here is that, because angels are these spiritual beings I keep saying angels because that's the word we use.
Speaker 2:These spiritual beings have pure intelligence right and in their pure intelligence their will is connected to their pure intelligence have. Their will is connected to their pure intelligence and so when they, in their pure intelligence, choose, their choice is irreversible. Or, as I said the other day, we choose because our intelligence is not pure and the more we learn, we can be self-corrective and we can change our attitude, we can change our behavior, we can adjust our decision-making right, whereas for these spiritual beings that doesn't exist, because they have perfect intelligence right and the will is connected to that intelligence and therefore they choose. So if they choose God, they choose God forever and if they choose against God, they rebel forever right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if they choose against God, they rebel forever, right and going back to the fall. One of the things, one of the theories, one of the speculations, is that somehow God revealed to these spiritual beings his plan of the creation of humanity, right, and because of this, the spiritual beings that could not accept this plan that God presents rejected God forever, whereas those spiritual beings that saw wonder and beauty and majesty in this plan that God had presented to them, they choose God forever. They rejoice in the glory, in this magnificent mystery that God presents. So that's the way a lot of speculative theologians kind of go back to that moment of decision for the fallen spirits and those that remain loyal and faithful. Decision for the fallen spirits and those that remain loyal and faithful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's two things that confuse people when they think about angels or they try to think deeply about spiritual beings, and it should be confusing. It is confusing because it is a bit of a mystery kind of thing. It should be confusing. It is confusing because it is a bit of a mystery kind of thing. Yesterday we highlighted that they are finite beings. Yes, because he created them Right. Today we clarified they exist outside of space-time like we do, right? And Bertha's back, hi, bertha, but they still, because they're not God, they exist in time they exist outside of time, but they have an existence that depends upon God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they're created, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So they're not eternal, but they are immortal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there is a moment, there is time and maybe it's space time Again. This is why it gets confusing there is a time before angels existed, because they're not Correct and there will be time, I guess. In theory, then there could be time after angels, Just to say we can bracket them and say that they're not eternal like God is Right, they're created.
Speaker 1:But we use the word perfect or complete when we're talking about their intellect, their knowledge which or pure and we're not trying to say that it's like pure, goodness it's if we're trying to say something was completely gold it means there's nothing else in there but gold. Correct, right.
Speaker 2:So if it's perfect gold, then it doesn't mean that it's yeah, their intelligence and their will is perfect, according to their nature.
Speaker 1:Yes, so it doesn't mean that it's perfectly good. I think we ascribe perfection to a goodness, and that's not the case. It's just complete, it's not lacking.
Speaker 2:Correct. Thank you for clarifying that, because it's not that angels are spiritual beings. For clarifying that. Because it's not that angels are spiritual beings, it's not that in their their perfection or purity of intelligence, it doesn't give them omniscience, it doesn't give them the same knowledge that God has. Right, they don't have that Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:They don't have the perfection of goodness as a as in God, but they are. They have the fullness of intelligence according to their nature.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so then, if there was a time before they existed, but their knowledge, according to their nature, is not lacking, then at the moment of their creation they would have had that complete knowledge.
Speaker 2:Yes yes.
Speaker 1:So again, this is where people's brains start melting and leaking out their ears. So then, when God made them, did they already know his At the moment of creation? Did they know his plan for humanity, or was that revealed to them? Because if it was revealed, then they lacked knowledge at creation and it wasn't complete.
Speaker 2:Right, they would have intelligence according to their nature, right, but the revelation then would also point to the fact that, in their nature, they are not God either, right? They don't know everything that God knows, and so they only know what they can know according to their nature.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, it's a little let's say, it gets a little. You know, mental gymnastics. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we'll have to talk to you scholastics about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one quick question too before we move on. This is a Betty question. The load. That's exactly where I'm going, okay, so if the angel of the load is potentially any angelic, any spiritual being who has been sent to be a messenger, right, correct, and he both. He can be God and he's not God, right, like the angel that wrestles with Israel is. He's not God, but he is God and all that kind of stuff, right? So he's this messenger, he's the. He's the ambassador, ambassador. Thank you, the ambassador of stuff. Right? So he's this messenger, he's the um. He's the ambassador, ambassador. Thank you that, the ambassador of god.
Speaker 1:so he has he represents that representation right okay, so then, fallen angels, when satan, uh, what's the word? When he challenges jesus in the desert, thinking of Lent, right, temptation, right, yeah, oh, temptation, yeah, so is. Are demons? No, I guess they can't be equally like representative of Satan, because he's not God, so they're all unique. So then, is the word Satan in the Bible, is it used to mean a very specific?
Speaker 2:angel.
Speaker 1:Or is it like a title almost, where it's any angel, any fallen angel that is challenging or tempting Jesus is Satan, because it's just a title, not so much a person.
Speaker 2:Pete Right. It gets complicated because now we're talking about Old Testament theology, old Testament spirituality, old Testament spirituality and commentaries on that, different ways of perceiving that right. But originally it is meant as an office, the office of accuser, the office of tester, right. So whichever again, whichever spiritual being is tasked with that, is it a unique individual spiritual being that is tasked with that or is it mostly the office? I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because didn't you say that the language kind of changes at some point in time?
Speaker 2:Yes, the understanding changes as their theology develops to their spirituality.
Speaker 1:Okay, just wanted to confuse everything a little bit more before we move forward.
Speaker 2:For a good yeah, a good confusing morning. Yeah, using mourning, yeah, so talking about intelligence and will and stuff, right then. So the freedom going to the freedom, the free will, the freedom that the fallen spiritual beings possessed, is created right, so we were given free will. The free will doesn't just come with us created right, so we were given free will. Free will doesn't just come with us, it is a gift. Part of God's plan in creating us and the creatures is that we're given free will. So, like animals don't have free will, they have instincts, right, so they can learn, but they learn instinctively. It's not like willing, right? So one of the things is to remember that their freedom is created and it's part of who they are, just as our free will is part of who we are.
Speaker 2:For the spiritual beings, it's what is known as supra-human freedom. That is, it's different from our freedom. That is, it's different from our freedom, right, and it is a freedom that was given to them before God created us. Right, he created the spiritual beings first. So their freedom is of a different class, of a different type, because it's according to their nature. According to their nature.
Speaker 2:So then, for us, just as the fall for mankind brought about a disharmony within the human race. There is also a lack of unity in the realm of the fallen spirits, which is in itself part of that reality, right? And yet at the same time, it is also a weakness, right? So there is division because Lucifer rebelled, then there is rebellion in that whole thing, and so he has as a higher ranking if you want to say a higher ranking spirit. He then holds those under him by his power, mm-hmm, right. So it's not. It's not that the lower ranking spiritual beings are loyal to Lucifer, it's that he holds them under his power. So they may even rebel or even hate Satan himself, but they can't do anything about it because he's stronger than they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well because the natures are related to one another as well, right, right, and so tolkien and his works makes it, makes that also obvious, and so that there's like they serve out of fear and even, uh, may even hate their masters, but fear holds them in place, right, and so this is one of the things that is part of this thing, and there's a lot of very bad, theological, spiritually bad movies, but they sort of make a point of this as well in terms of the rebellion that exists within the ranks of the fallen, just like there is division in other places that we see in human history and in certain traditions of Christianity.
Speaker 2:And so one of the things that we have to, taking this into account, this division that exists. We have to also then remember that God's creation is ordered, this division that exists. We have to also then remember that God's creation is ordered, and even among the spiritual beings, there has to exist an order, because that's part of God's design. Right, and they cannot break this order because their power is not absolute. So, then, lower ranking spiritual beings cannot grow into another rank, they cannot become other than who they are because that's part of who they are in their nature.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, the order right. So yeah, it gets a little complicated, spiritually, right, the whole speculative theology. So I want to quote something else from Sacramentum Mundi, and this is concerning the relationship of the spiritual beings to our material world. Sacramentum Mundi states— this is found under the heading Angel At all events, their relation, the spiritual beings, at all events, their relation to the world, which is both material and spiritual, must be thought of in such a way that they are really understood to be principalities and powers of the cosmos, understood to be principalities and powers of the cosmos in virtue of their very nature, and do not merely intervene in the world by arbitrary decision, contrary to their real nature and, in certain cases, out of sheer malice.
Speaker 2:At all events, the affirmation of their created character places, from the start, all spiritual created character, places from the start all spiritual, personal, cosmic powers, and therefore their power and even their wickedness, within the circle of realities which are absolutely subject to a good and holy God and which are good by their origin. It's okay, they're skewed, but originally they were created good. They, these fallen spiritual beings. They must never be overestimated as quasi-divine contrary principles on a level with God and against.
Speaker 2:Him, and this goes back and again. It touches on this thing that is a theme in a lot of movies and visions and differing spiritualities and obsessions and stuff Kind of making, as you mentioned the other day, making Satan kind of like an anti-God God right.
Speaker 2:Like the God of evil. Right, and that's wrong and that's very mistaken. Right Because they are created beings right, skewed, and they'll suffer the consequences of that when we come to the four last things. But that's who they are, right, and so part of their connection to creation is part of God's plan for them to even the fallen ones. Somehow they're still connected to creation because that's part of their nature, but their connection to nature is skewed, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so this line where they do not merely intervene in the world by arbitrary decision, contrary to their real nature and, in certain cases, out of sheer malice, an example. So let's just so, I guess we'll take Satan. If Satan was, if his design was to be this tester, this teacher who guides you into a situation that you're going to grow out of, then the way he's going to interact with you is through his nature of testing and challenging.
Speaker 1:But because he's ske challenging, but instead of that, nature is skewed yeah yeah, instead of helping you grow instead of testing how it's tempting right, yeah, exactly if there were a I don't know just making something up now because I've known if there was like an angel of I don't know love or something, then it, its skewed nature, would make it like the demon of lust or something. I guess so somehow it's all relating to whatever its original nature is. It's not like one demon sitting around going. You know how I'm going to mess with Father Stephen today. I'm going to go do this.
Speaker 2:I'm going to make him late for morning prayer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because that would be the arbitrary thing, right? I'm choosing to just go have fun and mess with people.
Speaker 2:They can't do that.
Speaker 1:No, okay, no, no, no Okay. Interesting, interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the reason I want to bring that up to you is because sometimes they're and I'm going to quote St Teresa of Jesus here in a minute from the Book of Her Life.
Speaker 2:I'm going to quote St Teresa of Jesus here in a minute from the Book of Her Life.
Speaker 2:But the reason I wanted to bring it up also I was interested in this topic is that there is within the Catholic Church, people, clergy, kind of obsessed with this question and they give a lot of attention and importance to it when it should not be. That, again, it's sort of like a I see it as a skewed importance by giving it so much importance. Yes, it's a reality, yes, it's true, but they're created and basically that kingdom is fallen, it has not been definitively destroyed yet, because we're waiting for the coming of Jesus Christ to definitively put an end to that kingdom of fallenness, right. And so sometimes I get a little perturbed, irritated that there are certain religious figures and even clergy who give a lot of attention, a lot of importance over much on Satan, right, and go like ugh, really, dude. So yeah, either overplaying it or downplaying it, or yeah, and it kind of upsets me like, uh, no, you need to bring something balanced and healthy and according to our teaching, but again you know well, they need to sell books.
Speaker 2:They need to. They want to be popular, and so this is what's popular.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, well, and there's the human element too, like we can't Exactly. There's things you like and you're just you know you're going to be drawn to the things that you find interesting. Yeah, you can't help but kind of double down on those things, because it's kind of what turns on your brain, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly you find interesting.
Speaker 1:Correct, yeah, okay cool.
Speaker 2:So I would like to take a quote from the Life of St Teresa of Jesus, st Teresa of Avila, and this is taken from the Book of Her Life, chapter 25, and Paragraph 19. And she was? What kind of nun was she? She was a Discalced Carmelite nun. She is for us, she is Holy Mother, she is the foundress of the discalced reform of the nuns and the friars. So this is from her autobiography. She says If this Lord, meaning Jesus Christ, meaning God, if this Lord is powerful, as I see that he is and I know that he is and if the devils are his slaves and there is no doubt about this because it's a matter of faith what evil can they do to me?
Speaker 2:Since I am a servant of this Lord and King, why shouldn't I have the fortitude to engage in combat with all of hell? I took a cross in my hand and it seemed to me truly that God gave me courage, because in a short while I saw that I was another person and that I wouldn't fear bodily combat with them. For I thought that with that cross, I would easily conquer all of them. For I thought that with that cross, I would easily conquer all of them. So I said come now, all of you, for being a servant of the Lord. I want to see what you can do to me.
Speaker 1:Oh, I love this, I love it.
Speaker 2:She's just like let's go, yeah, but I think part of it too is again ending on this note is she realizes the truth of belonging to the body of Christ and that the devil has no power over Christ and that the devil is subject to Christ. Is subject to Christ because remember, going back to the other episode, that all these spiritual beings were created to serve the Son, to serve the second person of the Trinity, and they're subject to Him. So she recognizes this, she sees this and then she goes like so then if I belong to the body of Christ and I'm a servant of Christ and I'm doing everything I possibly can to be a good Catholic Christian person, then Satan has no power over me, right, and so one of the things, too, is you have to be careful.
Speaker 2:We can't, as you mentioned earlier, there is fallen human nature, right? So, yeah, it's a consequence of the fall, but we have to resist the temptation to see a devil under every rock or behind every bush, like, yeah, he has more things to worry about than to, you know, to be worried about making me late for morning prayer or whatever. Let's not attribute everything to him. So he's got enough problems of his own. So, yeah, we'll have to come back to this and finish up these quotes and do some more uh talking okay, awesome, yeah, so we're gonna wrap this up.
Speaker 1:We'll come back next time. We'll start with saint teresa and then we'll just chew on this. Oh my gosh, she's, she's so cool. All right, I love you.
Speaker 2:Thanks for joining us and, uh, we'll see you next time. Bye, thank you, bye.