My Friend the Friar
A podcast where we learn about our faith and share what it takes to live a Catholic Christian life through conversations and contemplations with my friend the friar, a Discalced Carmelite Priest.
My Friend the Friar
Joy and Discerning God's Will with Mark Gansle
In this episode, John and Mark Gansle ponder the profound distinction between happiness and joy through Mark's experience so far a year into his discernment to become a Catholic deacon. They consider the thought that while happiness is a fleeting emotion, joy is a deep-seated state rooted in following God's will and living in communion with Him. They dive into the spiritual nuances of joy, the suffusion of the Holy Spirit in our lives, and responding to God's call in our lives to live out what we're meant for instead of just doing what we want to do.
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Speaker 2:Waves and waves of awesomeness.
Speaker 1:We probably just sit here and be weird for a minute.
Speaker 2:So I asked her if she wanted like a head, like a headset. She's like no, I hate headsets, I don't want it in my ear and I don't want it on my ear. I was like well, do you want a better mic? I do want like a one of these, so that when you're on a conference call, like it's picking you up rich voice.
Speaker 2:She's like everyone's like you're on the radio yeah well she's like no, um, like, honestly, she's doing good. She, uh, you know we, you know we got the kids out right, um, and we spent like may out of prison 100 we spent a big part of may getting them moved into an apartment um together. Yeah, so Jillian's graduated and she's got a job at UT Southwestern I know, oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Well, no, this is the best part.
Speaker 2:She immediately got hooked up with his job at UT Southwestern and she had interned there a couple of times in the animal lab because a friend of ours yeah, killing the small animals? Oh yeah, no you're not supposed to put the, the test mice into the autoclave yeah, because it's dangerous for them. Um so she's. She's working in that lab.
Speaker 2:A friend of ours got her the internship originally yeah um, but she got this position essentially on her own, because they love her degree program, because her degree program is molecular biology, yep and genetics, and um, that's exactly what this program is at ut southwestern. So I mean she's preparing like agar plates for cultures and stuff like she's not, you know, she's not splitting the atom yet yeah, but um, but it's, I mean it's fantastic.
Speaker 2:So she needed an apartment, did not want to. He did not want to live on the dorm anymore. Like he wanted a place where, like we're not subsidizing two profligate lifestyles. So you've got like y'all, but they've always gotten along really well together.
Speaker 2:They've always like yeah, been complimentary enough, I think, and really the apartment setup is perfect because it's got the living room and it's got a bedroom on one side and a bedroom on the other side, so like they can be separated. Um, but she can take. She can walk to the train and take the train into work. He can drive to campus. It's only 15 20 minutes away. Where's?
Speaker 1:he going to college? Uta, okay, okay, so my niece is going to uta next year is she?
Speaker 2:yeah, do you know what her degree program is going to be?
Speaker 1:not off. I know what it's related to. I don't know what it's necessarily called, but it's an art program. Okay, because my younger sister works in the video game industry. My niece wants to be like Aunt Jeet and make video games, but she's always loved art. She's always loved concept art. She's always loved all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:That's cool.
Speaker 1:And so apparently, uta has a good art school. They've got a good lot of things, yeah, and so she got in um, and so she's starting this fall I know somebody who's doing nursing there.
Speaker 2:Um, I had a colleague who did, I think, chemistry there, um grant was attracted to this place because it had a good, or it had at least some form of quantum mechanics, quantum computing and nanotechnologies and all the other things he was really interested in Nerd Coming from the guys who like IT stuff. I know like that's cool yeah, although I mean the most advanced you got was well, you could be a physics major, Right? No, you can't do nanotechnology. That's for graduate students, buddy.
Speaker 2:Man technology is so cool it is, and it's amazing what the degree programs are now compared to when we were going to college.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I remember we had this one guy on our football team. His name was Charlie Roberts Wherever you are in the universe, man, like I hope you're well, but he was on our football team and he scored a perfect score on his SAT and we're like, wow, wow, you're very smart Young guy, right? Anyway, he went to college. Who knows where, came back One of my other friends. We were driving down the street and we saw him walk in and he had this big, huge beard, somehow. Like right out of high school, I guess when you go to fancy school, you got to grow a beard. And so he we literally like u-turned, drove back, pulled over and got out and was just talking to him because we're like, what are you doing? And all I remember is it had something to do with genetics, I and that that was that, was it. But now that's probably like child's play to a lot of people nowadays with all the advancements.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember a few years ago we were doing a recruiting program at Baylor and they had and I don't remember what they called it, but they had a degree program, because there were so many of these students coming through that were on this degree program.
Speaker 1:That is a combination of big data and genetics yeah, like that's not scary, right, well, and then you're gonna get grant doing like nanotech nanobots that are gonna go, or the the nanobots are made out of dna or something like that, so the molecular robots, so they go do whatever you need them to do yeah it's.
Speaker 1:I feel like it's going to be a lot more horror movie than it's going to be marvel movie I may be wrong yeah, I don't, I don't know, man, the world is pretty crazy, it is pretty crazy, so that's good. Yeah, and sophia wants to do like sonogram technician kind of oh, and so there's a program, so the high school she goes to does things. What do they call it? Dallas County promise, or something like that. So basically, if you're in a certain percentile of your class, then going to the community colleges are greatly reduced, or free, or something like that.
Speaker 2:It's free, yeah, if you're, if you're if you're in your junior or senior year and you live in Dallas County, you get tuition free, dual enrollment at Dallas County community college district and um all you pay for is your book fee.
Speaker 1:Nice yeah. So so the to be a sonogram technician.
Speaker 1:It's a certificate program instead of like a college degree certificate program instead of like a college degree, okay, and so she can just go do that, and that's that's what she's interested. First she wants to get like um I guess you'd call it your associates You'd get all your basics out of the way for free and get this certificate. And then she's thinking about looking at um, uh, university of Dallas, for I forget the name of the program, but there are medical related things just to make her more competitive.
Speaker 2:I guess as an applicant you know in the job, yeah for sure. So that's well. I mean, the first thing grant did was like get himself hooked up with a research study program as a um, like a 10 to 15 hour a week job, and I'm like that's gonna look great on your resume for the things that you want to do. Yeah, um, but yeah I, it's like I think that one of the best things about Mike Rowe's show is in this kind of his you know the things he talks about out there is there's so much more to do out there than just the traditional four-year degree program. There's so much more to do than just, you know, you go work in an office and do Excel sheets the rest of your life. My sister went to back when it was called Del Mar instead of Texas A&M Corpus Christi.
Speaker 1:Oh, did they buy it out?
Speaker 2:I went to Del Mar yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, hold on. So there's Texas A&M, corpus, and now, but before that it was something else, but there's still. Del Mar College was like the community college part.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right, you like the community college part? Oh, that's right, you're right. So, but she got her LVN in two years, yeah, or not even two full years, but licensed vocational nurse, and I mean she's always been very, very good at that. It was right for her. I love the, but I also think that you've got to be open to what I think that I want is not what's going to happen to me. It's not what god's planned for me.
Speaker 2:I went to school thinking I was going to be a lawyer yeah I had a guy that I worked with who was in sales and he um his first job out of college was phlebotomist go figure, how do you sell that? What, what phlebotomy?
Speaker 1:Yeah, he doesn't?
Speaker 2:He was selling other stuff. Yeah, no, he works for Dr Acula.
Speaker 1:He just wanted to take your blood, so Dr Acula, yeah, that's funny, but what a lovely segue.
Speaker 2:Well, the part about being open to what God wants for you versus what you, what you want for yourself.
Speaker 1:It's on my mind a lot, yeah, yeah, um has it been like a year?
Speaker 2:it's. It's got to have been close to a year since we did the last podcast. Um, because I did my informational session in april and I had not yet started yeah, I don't think you the program so I think it's right about a year now.
Speaker 1:Yeah man, it's wild how fast time goes. I know it's wild, so the older you get, the faster it goes. I actually read an article about that really that there.
Speaker 1:There is this theory that I and I don't remember all of it. This is what I do. I remember like two lines out of a whole article that I read, but I think it has to do something about the speed at which your synapses fire, because the faster you go right like in theory in space as you approach the speed of light, time slows down. So when you're little, your synapses fire real fast and so time seems like it drags on. You remember being in elementary school and you're like, oh my gosh, I've been here for 70 years and it's still monday, you know yeah and as you get older and your synapses slow down, time is perceived faster, and so it's like everything is flying by.
Speaker 2:I think that's possible, although mathematically, like the percentage of the speed of light, I'm not sure like how appreciable that is on our synapse. I mean, it's, you know, it's not us, it's the synapses. But I honestly I always just thought, like it's, you know, it's intolerable when you don't love it. And you know, most of us, when we get older, we love our lives more and more. We appreciate what we've got, we're grateful what we've got, more and more.
Speaker 1:And then it's gone.
Speaker 2:We've built into our lives a lot more of what we want.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what's the difference, do you think, between doing what you want to do and doing what you're called to do? Right, what God wants you to do, your vocation versus this is this thing I would just want to do, cause. Is there a fundamental difference between the two? They can absolutely be the same thing, but what's the like? How do you navigate that? Because that's still gotta be something you're grappling with in the diaconate formation program, right?
Speaker 2:I think it's. I think it's gotta at least be analogous to the difference betweenate formation program. Right, I think it's. I think it's got to at least be analogous to the difference between happiness and joy. That, um, I mean, what I want to do is sleep in and then just lay on my couch and eat potato chips, um, sometimes, and that's. But I also don't right, cause I don't want to get weak and fatter, and I think a lot of it has to come down to being able to recognize is this lasting joy or is this a short-term happiness? Is this gratification? Is this just you know my body's reaction, or you know some sort of addiction in my life or something else like that?
Speaker 2:I do believe that we find happiness from the joy we get when we follow the path that God set for us. I do believe that joy is stronger than just the short-term happiness. I do believe that joy is stronger than just the short-term happiness and I do believe that, ultimately, you get rewarded not as like a payment or a bribe, but as the natural, logical, necessary consequence of following the path that God set for you. Of course, if you're doing what you remain for, it makes sense that you would be more joyful, that you would be more satisfied, that things would fit Like with being married. You find the person and there's a fit. And that fit isn't a bribe or a reward, it's not an incentive. It is just the necessary consequence of that's the person that you're supposed to connect with, that's the person you're supposed to be matched to and you're supposed to make a life with and bond yourself to and become one with how do you perceive the difference between happiness and joy?
Speaker 1:because, like, we perceive a lot through, through either our senses or our emotions. But how do you, do you think joy is? I understand kind of mechanically the logical conclusion of right, that makes sense. But is it a thought, is it an understanding or a realization? So is joy a mental state? It an understanding or a realization? So is? Is joy a mental state almost, do you think?
Speaker 1:or because happiness, you know, is people always attribute it to a feeling right, I feel happy yeah and because our words are what they are, people say, I feel joyful, but I think they're just conflating the two together.
Speaker 2:I think that they are Um and you were talking on an earlier episode around um some of this as well, so that's part of that's going on.
Speaker 1:It's been coming up a bunch lately for some reason. That's weird.
Speaker 2:Um, well, I mean it's it's important Happiness is is absolutely a weird. Well, I mean it's important, happiness is absolutely a feeling. The problem with our feelings is that, while they are real, they're not a real map of the world. Just because I truly am sad doesn't necessarily mean that the world is a sad place. Just because I feel like I'm being attacked, those feelings are true, I am feeling that way. It doesn't mean that person's attacking me.
Speaker 2:Joy, on the other hand, I think joy, I think, is real. I think joy is the suffusion of God in our lives, of the Holy Spirit, of our lives being more ordered, of our lives being in communion with God and with his perfect will and with what we should be doing, what we were made for and what we're meant for. And I think that it it manifests us in us as a feeling, because it is a feeling in our bodies and in our brains and because we are both spirit and body, we're going to have feelings in addition to just that perfect intellect of the angels. But I also think that, because we are broken, our feelings can be misleading and our feelings can be things that we misinterpret.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Do you think this is? I got a Betty question just popped in my head. Alright, now I'm thinking the beatific vision right, you're in heaven. You would imagine perfect joy. Right, because it's the fullness of that cooperation with God's will, his plan. You're the fullness of what you're supposed to be. Well, at least at some point. You may just be still separated from your body, right, but you're supposed to be. Well, at least at some point. You may just be still separated from your body, right, but you're still. You're doing what you're meant for worshiping God before him. Do you think there's also perfect happiness? Right, that's pure speculation, yeah, who knows, but do you think you're happy?
Speaker 2:in heaven. You know I'm always down for the speculation. Yeah, or do you?
Speaker 1:think you can be sad for your I don't know your best friend from high school who went to hell or something like that. Right Sad for them, but you're perfectly joyful. Or is sadness, or is sadness.
Speaker 2:I think if the only thing you felt was happiness, including at life's tragedies and about the tragedy of people who have the opportunity to love God and choose not to, I think that's not perfection. I think that of course there's. There can be sorrow in heaven, but I think that sorrow is not marring, it's not hurting your perfect joy.
Speaker 2:It is the appropriate inunity with God hopefully a perfect expression of what you should feel. I don't think that there's. I think that what we interpret as happiness is a function of our body and then us being broken and us being really disconnected from original holiness and original justice. And if you think about all of the biblical references to angels and to the transfiguration and to Christ after the resurrection, to the transfiguration and to Christ after the resurrection, we have absolutely no conception of what it's going to be like after, after the final coming, jesus was basically teleporting.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's shown like a star. His face did yeah, he didn't have to look the way that he did when he was alive. Like all of those things. I think that our glorified bodies will be so different from our current bodies that what we know as happiness and our other emotions are are very likely to have been in retrospect, are very likely to have been in retrospect just pale imitations of what we're actually meant for. So it's, it's, it's. It's really hard to say, hey, well, what does that mean? Like, can I imagine what this is going to feel like? I think the answer is probably not really, yeah, not not super well no.
Speaker 1:So after a year of formation, how do you know so far that the diaconate is what you're called to?
Speaker 2:Well, when we first talked, I said that one of the deacons say you're not discerning whether you're going to be a deacon, you're discerning what's the next step.
Speaker 1:that God wants you to take. Oh, that's right, I remember that. I remember that and that's actually very helpful, because that's life. Yeah, it's like this moment. What is God asking me to do in this moment? Not 15 minutes from now, not an hour from now, not days from now, not years from now. What does God?
Speaker 2:want from me right now, because that's where you encounter him right In the moment. That's right, and we can't imagine where he's taking us. So if we try to control that and that control is always going to be an illusion then we're probably keeping ourselves from really receiving true joy and true happiness and growing closer the way that he wants to with us. So I don't know that I'm going to be a deacon. I do know that I want to take the next step and the reason I know that I want to take the next step is, um, father Edwin recommended a book called the Discernment of Spirits, which was a translation of St Ignatius of Loyola's first writings.
Speaker 2:On that, um, and it was fantastic. It was a little bit dense, like maybe if you're not Catholic it's not immediately going to resonate, but if you're interested in that, the first reading gets to the point where you're like, okay, this is really gelling for me, this is coming into place, and on the second reading it's even better. But he's got 14 rules for the discernment of spirits and ultimately he says we're in consolation or desolation. We're either moving towards God or we're moving away from God and ultimately, with all of his rules, it's not super complicated.
Speaker 2:Are you feeling closer to God or not? Are you moving closer to God or not? Are you acting closer to God or not? And you moving closer to God or not? Are you acting closer to God or not? And if you are in desolation, don't make big decisions about your spiritual life. And if you are in consolation, that's the time to double down and move even closer to God and to discern what your next step is. And I've felt consolation in every single thing that I've done with the diaconate, other than super uncomfortable chairs at St Raphael retreat center.
Speaker 1:Father Stephen went out there once. I remember him talking about it in one of those, one of the episodes.
Speaker 2:Jillian went there, I think, three easters in a row when she was at the highland school really that's they would do an easter um like for the triduum. They would go out and they would volunteer in the community and they'd have a nightly adoration and where is? It um. So if you go south on 35, just like just over the? Um, just past the mix master and just over the bridge, um like right around zhang curve is like you exit and it's back in that neighborhood there so how, I don't know.
Speaker 1:so like tell me, like how's, how's it been going? Like what's, what's's, what's?
Speaker 2:the things that have, like, stood out the most to you, or the things that have challenged you the most, or I think the biggest challenge is it has been 30 years since I had to take notes when I was reading a book. I cannot remember the last time that I sat down and read something and then said okay, stop, go back, let's start taking notes, cause we're not going to retain all this. Um, but that's exciting, right, like. It means that I'm I'm getting to learn things. You know some of the stuff you and I have talked about, um, some of the stuff you and father Steven have talked about, right Like, I'm reading through the sector St Sancto, sancto, sanctum Concilium, man, that's hard to say.
Speaker 2:I want to put an extra n in there. Um, I'm reading through those vatican ii documents and um, it's just, it's fascinating. It's fascinating to see all these things that you and I may take for granted because of where we're at, but um, maybe wasn't like it absolutely wasn't taken for granted in the 70s or the 80s, but um, I've, I've had a lot of that chirp feeling every single time I've been doing this yeah that, um, and a big part of that, I mean.
Speaker 2:I'm certain you know and remember, there's that feeling that this is how I'm supposed to be spending my time yes like this is a much, much better use of my time than anything else I could be doing isn't that weird almost no, I think it's, I think it's in it. We have to.
Speaker 1:How joy yeah, how we normally live our lives, where I'm bored or there's. I'm looking forward to this thing. But I've noticed, right, because it's the same thing when you're, when you're at a trip, retreat or something like that, when you're caught up or like this, talking about God and sharing your experiences. To me at least, there is this sensation, this fulfillment, this maybe it's joy, right? This, this is the most satisfying thing I can think of doing now that I've experienced it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I mean there's lots of great things to do out there.
Speaker 2:There are.
Speaker 1:But I almost feel it's like the they go up the mountain for the transfiguration. Peter's like, let's just stay here. Jesus is like no, no, no, no, we gotta go right. This is where no, no, no, no, we got to go right. This is where I don't know nothing compares to it.
Speaker 2:It doesn't and it's and you're right like there's so many other things. I mean I'm definitely going to Paso Livre Solo after this and picking up more than bananas, like I'm not coming all the way out here and not getting some of that.
Speaker 2:But there's the opportunity there's. There was the. So the first semester is really very, very passive and um, and what I mean by that is not just, like kenny, you're being lectured to, but you're being lectured to with no expectation back at all. The second semester you're being lectured to a lot more, but a lot more of it is kind of academic and there is an expectation that you're going to be able to to grow and to to be able to do something like there is a return that you're meant to give. Next semester will be even much more like that. You know, in the second year assuming they sign off on my application aspirancy- which is we're in the middle of right now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they sign off on my application aspirancy, which is we're in the middle of right now. Yeah, um, so there were a lot of sessions around things like this is what it's like to be a deacon, and some of the aspects of that. Um, we had someone who lost his wife in the Akinna formation.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And um, and you take a vow of chastity, which means you maintain your, you maintain sexual continence. So if you're married, that's groovy, but if you're widowed, like you're done Now, you're celibate. Um, we heard about prison ministry and hospital ministry and challenges and just some of the things that can make it hard for people. I actually read a book by a woman whose husband had been ordained a deacon immediately after Vatican II and after the reinstitution of the permanent diaconate and like her story was, this was not easy. Like we had to make adjustments. We had I had to remind him that he can't go spend 36 hours a day being a deacon. Like there's, he's got responsibilities at home, so there's there's balances you have to strike, but, um, but we heard a lot about those and we had some mock classes, like here's what a lecture would look like from some of the people who are going to be lecturing us at university of Dallas.
Speaker 2:Um, and they made sure uh, they make sure that fellowship is a part of what we're doing.
Speaker 2:So there's always mealtime together and there's always there's there's small cohorts of the deacons and their wives who get together outside of the weekend where we're going to St Raphael, yeah, and so, and I mean you know exactly what that feels like because you've done Sherpa a number of times, and so it's the same sort of experience of growing an intimacy to others, to other people that you know at least share this basic love of God, which is important because so many of the people that we meet in life we may not have anything in common with them or we may be very much at odds in some of the most fundamental things.
Speaker 2:So that part is really really joyful. It's really fantastic to be able to spend time with men and women who you know love Christ, who you know are interested in serving in their communities, who are active in the church, and just hearing about their challenges too. Almost every single one of them has got kid challenges right. It's either I've got kids that still live in the house that are 18 and less, and I've got kid challenges A lot of times. I've got kids who are like back in the house and they're over 18 and I've got kid challenges, but we're not alone.
Speaker 1:Is there a minimum deacon age, assuming you're not transitional deacon towards the priesthood?
Speaker 2:There is a minimum and maximum and I think a year ago I probably had that written down. I don't know that I still have that written down. I think it's like 35 to 65 or something like that there is a that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there is a range. Yeah, I feel if you're, if you were interested in the permanent diaconate, you probably need a certain amount of life under you before you can make that kind of choice.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, I mean, and if you even think about, actually, the apostles, like they wanted men who had been seasoned and were respected in the community and proven to be stable, um, like, those are all attributes and they continue to be attributes today.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If you look in the basic norms, um for the permanent deck, in it like it references those verses in acts and says like this is this continues today to be an essential element of what it means to be a deacon, because you're serving in persona christy survey, you're serving in the person of christ, the servant. Um, that's not. That's a lot of what they're discerning of us during this is is this a matter of ego? Is it a matter of um? You know some sort of psychological impediment that you've got, that you know you're looking for some satisfaction somehow, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like you're looking to fill a void that needs to be filled um correctly. So I mean they're looking and discerning that Um. So we've done. You know we've done the classes, but we also had um. It was a multi-step application process. So the application it covered so many different things and I'm trying to remember if I gave you that in the show prep, but the application occurs in the second semester for the next step, for aspirancy, and then that's a two-year process and then you're still applying another time for candidacy. And so they took a credit check. They want a recent version of my um, my resume. They had college transcripts. They want a college transcripts. Yeah, they want to college transcripts. They want.
Speaker 1:They want a picture of you and your wife Right All sorts of and and that's a really interesting. I keep thinking. I really want to talk to Robin too. And I have her because it is absolutely necessary, it's fundamentally necessary for her to be a part of this process.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And that's very interesting.
Speaker 1:And she and the wives have independent veto yep, like if she says no, the answer is no so there's so there's so much learning going on and something that always interests me and maybe this is something a point of interest in my life right now, because sophia is the age she's at but there is a difference between I'm gonna put this, I'm gonna cache this stuff in my short-term memory so I can regurgitate it on a test or something and move forward right, and then integrating what you learn into your life that's right, so that integration is fascinating to me, and because I think that those are those moments, it's like going to RCIA, right?
Speaker 1:You learn, you learn, you learn, you learn, you learn.
Speaker 2:Have you ever been a part of the RCIA program? Robin attended.
Speaker 1:RCIA.
Speaker 2:Okay, because she was not raised Catholic, she wasn't confirmed, but I wasn't her sponsor and I will be. That's one of the first pastoral assignments you get as a deacon in formation is you're going to go spend a year at a church not your own and you're going to participate in the RCIA program.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so you learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. Participate in the rca rca program? Yeah, and so there's. So you learn, learn, learn, learn, learn. But if you're not integrating what you're learning into your life which to me, I I understand, is as where it moves from your head to your heart, you know, um, like that's the important moment. And what's interesting to me, too, is that integration never seems to be very clean. In my own life, father Stevens told me things that years later the light bulb finally turns on. Oh yeah, I get it now, instead of in the moment when somebody's teaching it to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right and in RCIA you're moving forward right. So at some point in time you make this declaration and you may still not have many of the components of our faith and all that. It still may not be fully integrated, but you know you want to move forward. I don't think you're quite in the same boat in the diaconate but you do need to. There's a part, do that yeah, yeah, you do need to integrate everything that you're learning and I guess that's the difference between just reading the book and annotating the book as you're, as you're reading it right well.
Speaker 2:So, um, I worked at a company where they had a training um program where they talked about 10, 20, 70 and basically they said that education is 10 or learning is 10. Education like that, that passive reception of information, it's 20 exposure, seeing how, what that actually means in real life, but it's 70 experience, and so, um, one of the beautiful things about saying about father steven is that he's so good at explaining not just the what but the why. Like this is this is how it's a logical necessity, this is how it makes sense within the broader context, which I think is a really good help to understand it so that you can integrate it. It's a better. It's not just throwing the seeds on the ground, it's planting them and watering them. But ultimately, without experience, we're not angels, so we're not going to perfectly understand it right, like we have to, because we're corporeal.
Speaker 2:We do have to, I think, experience that in a lot of ways to really truly be able to integrate it into our lives, um, and to be able to have, I think we're, in part, we're making mental connections or or even sometimes emotional connections between one experience and another, which means that we're also, um, like that's, that's supporting our, our mental assessment of of that knowledge and our intellectual assessment of that knowledge and our spiritual assessment of that knowledge.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so how's, how has the integration been for you so far? That's, that's almost a weird way to say it, because how's your assimilation been well?
Speaker 2:we are bored, yeah, um the resistance is futile it certainly is the um nerds father steven will be so happy, I know that's exactly what I was thinking.
Speaker 1:Oh, by the way, like a year ago, probably even more, Father Stephen made some kind of Babylon 5 reference.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I remember that Was that when you were here. It was on an episode right before we recorded, and then he made the same sorts of references during ours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I literally finished it this week, finally, finally finished. It's like seven seasons.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow.
Speaker 1:It's a long. It's a lot of episodes. Yeah it was good Side note or side tangent, right. The last season was kind of meh. I see what they were doing, but it felt to me as though they were trying to find a way to wrap things up. They probably had studio pressure like this has gone on long enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Tie off all the loose ends and kind of move forward. But they did it all right. I think the best part of the series is there is a lot of things going on that are never expressly. There's this underlying tone, that stuff is happening that you're not privy to. And then, because everything takes place on the space station, for the most part right, and so you'll get these little bits of pieces of things, and so they they do a good job of weaving these threads continuously through so you might have an episode about so you learn it like a character would learn it yeah, so yeah, yeah, there's like an episode where somebody is hyper focused in this one event that's going on, but in the background, because that thread is woven through all the episodes.
Speaker 1:You see the movement of all the big things going on in the background. So it's well done.
Speaker 2:It's well done I mean, ultimately, is the way our lives really are that, um know, we kind of know the end of the story if we're reading the Bible, but when it comes to our lives, we're no smarter than anybody in the Bible was about.
Speaker 2:We learn it as it happens to us sometimes instead of seeing the bigger picture. The integration part is, I think it requires patience. So one of the things that we have to do as a part of um application to candidacy or aspirancy is go see a counselor. So we saw this woman, bernice Simmons, and um spent about two and a half hours with her um after taking like we had like a 250 question assessment. So it was like a. It was a. It was a marriage instrument that they use for um pre-cana counseling and for people who are maybe having issues in their lives and maybe in even in marriage encounter um to identify, you know, where do you align together and where do you have differences together or where do you have the kind of alignment that could be negative Like.
Speaker 2:I really wish John wasn't so stubborn you know, if, like and you said, I wish, really wish Betty wasn't so stubborn Like y'all, both strongly agree to that. That's not a good thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um. So one of the things that we talked about was extroverted um thinkers versus introverted thinkers, and it's not the same thing as extroverts and introverts. That's like. That's an emotional thing.
Speaker 2:It's some people process externally and they speak about as they're thinking, and some people need silence and quiet and they process internally and she was kind of talking us through that and drawing this picture of Mark.
Speaker 2:You're an introverted thinker and you tend to process internally. The problem is that you don't really give anything back. So like on your thing, your side of your brain, like you're half, like you're full there, and then you're full on your side, on your Robin side, because Robin's telling you the things that she thinks, but she's completely empty because you're not giving it back. So like you've got to be careful that you don't leave her hanging and she's got to be careful that she doesn't overwhelm you with her thoughts and gives you time to process, and like that's a really amazing insight for us. After 23 years of marriage, we're still going to integrate that right. Like we still got to figure out all right. So how do I build habits to to be more verbal than I would naturally be how do I, how does she recognize or how do I even signal to her in a loving way that, um, you know?
Speaker 1:Hey, I need a minute, yeah.
Speaker 2:Um. So I think the integration part is. The integration part is is an opportunity to practice patience, um, and pray for help and to trust in God. But, um, but I know that the pastoral elements of formation are a big part of that integration. If you think about the ways in which you have served in your life, you've probably learned more, so much more, about your faith in that pastoral care of others, in your love for your wife and your daughter than anything else in your life, than any amount of reading. So I truly believe that 10, 20, 70 rule, like I truly believe it's not. Until we actually go experience what the Bible's telling us, what our priests are telling us, what our friends are telling us in the care of others, in the exercise of corporal and spiritual acts of mercy, I don't think you integrate any of your faith and that's one of the reasons, like more and more.
Speaker 2:That's why I said when we first talked that everybody should go through diaconate formation, like everybody should kind of experience the same things. I truly believe that the things that they're having us do that I'm blessed to have somebody kind of help me with we all need to do Like. We all need to pray more. We all need to pray with the Psalms and the scriptures more. We all need to serve others. Serve the poor, serve the you know, serve the sick, serve those in prison. God, and you know this intellectually, god never, ever, ever told us anything, because he was, was just a tough guy. Every single thing he told us to do was out of love for us. He was giving us the perfect recipes for success. Every time he told us don't kill, don't lust after your neighbor's wife, feed the poor and the hungry. None of that's for our I mean hungry. None of that's for our I mean 100% of that's for our benefit. Prayer is not for God's benefit, it's for our benefit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it changes you, not him. That's so interesting, thinking of the process that you're going through and, as you said, after 20 some odd years of of marriage, you're like what you know? Learn something new? Um, it is. It is so. Communication is so hard and negotiation, negotiating relationships or just interactions with people around you is so hard.
Speaker 2:It is.
Speaker 1:And it's hard with your spouse, it's hard with your kids, it's hard with your neighbor, it's hard with your boss, it's hard with people who report to you. Right, it's all hard. Yeah, I wonder if there's some kind of opportunity there to bring some of this to people like the laity at a parish.
Speaker 2:You mean to take kind of like the best parts of formation.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I think, in some ways, depending on the nature of your parish and the size of it, parishes are, and they're trying to do it all the time. Our parish, I mean, you know how big St Anne is. You know how much real estate it covers, it's almost impossible to book a room if you don't plan a number of months in advance. Yeah, because ministries there Stephen ministry and CH and chirp and mom's ministry and marriage encounter Like there's so many ministries going on where people are working to to serve each other.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um marriage encounter and the Holy spirit, um the encounter sessions, that there's alpha, there's so much going on. Um, I think that, um, for some reason, for many reasons, we tend to avoid those.
Speaker 1:I was just thinking that there's so much, how hard is it to get you to do the thing like that you're supposed to go do? How many people?
Speaker 2:the first time they were in chirp said like people have been asking me to do this for 22 years and I finally did it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my wife's been on me for seven years. Yeah, yeah, like all of them. Yeah, my wife's been on me for seven years. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like all of them. Yeah, and it kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier, like this once we choose to do it, once we experience it, we realize this is the best thing People tend to look at, and especially people who aren't Christian or Catholic. They tend to look at the people who are, like, involved in Bible studies and saying, man, y'all are crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You're in a cult, why would you spend your time that way?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you're only saying that because you've never tried it Like they're in that because they realized this is such a blessing in their lives that it's the best thing that they can be doing with their time. And I think that we do have, like at St Ann, we've got Stephen Ministry for those who are bereaved. We've got people who are actually licensed well, not licensed, but certified spiritual advisors, like just lay people who are doing that stuff. So I think there's so many opportunities and we have an intellectual and or spiritual lack of curiosity to pursue those things sometimes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because we're comfortable and we're broken. Yeah, I was going to say consequence of the broken world and this reminds me of what I was saying just the other week with my friend Anthony is and this is so weird. Again, it's something that I recognize in myself and it's going to take who knows. Only God knows how long for me to integrate into my brain fully. Excuse me is my default status is oh, somebody should do something about that, when instead I should be realizing that the best opportunity for for the best parts of formation to affect the people in the of the world is to integrate them into myself. And then go be a good neighbor, right the community. Go form relationships with people and, through your relationship, evangelize them and help them to integrate these things into their life, not because you're you're preaching or teaching to them, but through your example, because we're all drawn to people like that. Right, there's this natural wow, that that guy's really great, you know.
Speaker 2:And well, success begets success. Everybody wants to be a part of a winning team.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, it's like the Apple TV show what's it called? With the soccer coach.
Speaker 1:Is it Ted's?
Speaker 2:No, ted Lasso, yeah, yeah yeah, like people want to be a part of a winning team, and I think that we ask, we think somebody should do something about that, instead of asking what can I do about that? And I mean, there's something everybody can do about that, even if it's just praying on that, praying for God's intercession, praying for the intercession of the saints for that person. You know, in our and if you, if you pray the um, the divine office, at least once every couple weeks, there's a prayer for um our leaders in office that they may love the world more fully and that they may love more than just their own nation and they may see um the peace and the good of all the world. And um is that suddenly going to make our politicians saints?
Speaker 2:I don't think so, uh, but I still believe it's efficacious, I still think that it does something yeah and um and like you're right, like we're all of it.
Speaker 2:we live in a busy world and especially if you know any of us that have kids or have jobs or any of the other things like all of us feel overwhelmed all the time, so nobody really wants to adopt something new. I think it's not about adopting something new. It's about upgrading the things in your life. Why not read scripture 30 minutes a day instead of playing Angry Birds? Like you're not adding it to your life. You're upgrading the thing that's in your life that isn't really giving you joy.
Speaker 2:It's just giving you distraction. Well, you can turn away from the things that you're not enjoying in your life, your work or your pressures, and turn to something even more fulfilling, even more joyful, even more everything that you've actually been looking for, even more suited to fill that hole in your life. Yeah, and it ultimately is. I think the more that we go do those things, the more that it changes us. But it's kind of like you know people who eliminate sugar from their diet and it changes their tastes Suddenly. Everything else they've been eating tastes better and they just hate the taste of really heavy sugary things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, or you eat something a piece of fruit and you're blown away by how sweet it is.
Speaker 2:now, this is sugar bomb.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:What is this? A donut.
Speaker 1:If only if they grew on trees. So I just saw how long we've been recording and I also realized that I never did the whole. Welcome to the podcast thing.
Speaker 2:You're going to layer that in post-production right.
Speaker 1:I don't know. We'll fix it post-production, but let's do this, let's go ahead and let's end this one and then next time, here in five minutes, we'll keep going. I want to know more about how integrating what you've been experiencing in your life has affected your marriage, your role as a dad, all those kinds of things. Okay, and just see how things are going. Yeah. So, mark, thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2:It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening. We'll see you next time.
