My Friend the Friar
A podcast where we learn about our faith and share what it takes to live a Catholic Christian life through conversations and contemplations with my friend the friar, a Discalced Carmelite Priest.
My Friend the Friar
An Integrated Faith and Intimacy with God with Mark Gansle
In this episode, John and Mark Gansle continue their conversation and take a heartfelt look at the unique challenges and blessings that come with being a deacon's wife. They discuss how growing closer to God can enhance intimacy, promoting patience, love, and gratitude. They reflect on the powerful practice of praying the Divine Office, showing how praying with the Psalms and canticles can enrich your faith and offer a model for prayer that encompasses all human emotions and binds the universal Church together. Tune in to hear their reflections on religious commitment, the importance of community support, and the challenging, yet rewarding, path of surrendering to God's will.
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Speaker 2:They're making honey mustard ones now.
Speaker 1:Potato chips.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I can get behind that. They're good. Oh, how's your country accent?
Speaker 2:How's my country accent? Why do you want me to say it? The angel of the Lord. The angel of the Lord, the angel of the lord, angel of the lord, the angel of the lord. But why has it got to be? Why it's got to be country? Why couldn't it be I?
Speaker 1:don't know what. It's because it's betty, betty, she, she gets. No, it's because it is because it's betty, it's because betty is secretly from the country y'all. And so, as she gets more excited, that country twang starts slipping out, and so, as she's like, who is the angel of the Lord? Who?
Speaker 2:is angel of the Lord.
Speaker 1:And it was just. I don't know, she's silly.
Speaker 2:My wife used to fixate on Cardinal Dolan and the way he would say the Lord, because it was always in like that New York Irish accent.
Speaker 1:Oh, what was that?
Speaker 2:I got to hear it. I'm not sure I can do it. I'm not going to try it while you're recording anyways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's funny, I'll have to. What's his name?
Speaker 2:nolan cardinal, dolan dolan yeah, new york cardinal okay, I'll have to go look him up he's like really active and serious exam catholic radio and that kind of stuff, so like when we were listening to a lot of that. He'd show up on shows um, but like his also, like they would um do the mass, I think sometimes they'd play it on um ewtn maybe but it was like it was from the. It was, it was from the cathedral in new york, and so when he would say the mass, it is the lard, the name of the lard, lard.
Speaker 1:Okay, then I that, though the way they say the r, that that would make sense yeah, who's the angel of the lard? Yeah, because that's pretty good. That's pretty good. Um, that'd be such a weird episode if everyone tried to speak in an accent. It would just evolve into tomfoolery. Yeah, the, the whole, the, the southern accent, that lord you know like just so pervasive in my mind, or jesus, you know you gotta right, I prefer irish.
Speaker 2:Yeah, jesus, jesus, mary joseph and all of his carpenter friends oh, it's so funny.
Speaker 1:Um well, because I forgot it last time, welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining me and my friend, mark, not the, not the fr, not the friar, not the friar. Mark, the the layman, the. Maybe someday, non-layman. Well, yeah, it's ordained.
Speaker 2:It is ordained Non-layman. It's the only Like a deacon is the only person who could possibly have received all seven sacraments. Well, I guess if you were widowed and you became a priest, but for most people it's either marriage or holy orders.
Speaker 1:All right, I'm going to throw a question at you. What's the difference between consecration and ordination?
Speaker 2:Well, consecration, so things that are consecrated are dedicated to God. Right, they're made holy and they're made special. Even I mean even blessing, like holy water has been set aside for a purpose, for God's purpose. Ordination is another seal of the Holy Spirit. It's another indelible mark on your soul.
Speaker 1:I'm going to start calling you indelible mark now. Indelible mark was my superhero name, that's right.
Speaker 2:It wasn't a very good superhero.
Speaker 1:You couldn't get him to go away though no, you know what.
Speaker 2:That's probably pretty appropriate. So, yeah, when you're consecrated, you're not ordained, you're not sealed with the Holy Spirit as such, and really the idea behind the ordination is we need that additional, that extra helping of the Holy Spirit to support us in our ministry, whether it's as a priest or as a deacon, or even if you're ordained a bishop. You're being called to be even more like Christ. You're being called to do even more on behalf of his people. You're being called to listen to God more, to serve more, to put yourself aside more. We can't possibly do that without the help of the Holy Spirit. We can't possibly be who we're meant to be. We can't truly be who we're meant to be. We can't truly be contrite for our sins, like there's nothing that we can do without the Holy Spirit. Right, st Paul? Like in weakness, I'm made strong. The power of Christ, I mean. That is the truth of our lives, and so it is. It's a blessing, but it's a blessing in service of service, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's the reason I was asking, not necessarily because I didn't know, but because I seem to have been hearing more and more in the past couple of years of consecrated virgins, and up until a couple of years ago I hadn't heard of any my whole life. And so my daughter, um, had a friend come with us to mass last weekend or the other weekend and, uh, rev kev had said something about his friend yeah, he had consecrated I gotta go because I gotta go do this thing, kind of thing wait, wait.
Speaker 2:you were at the noon mass. Was it noon? Was that noon or was that Saturday mass? I feel like it was Saturday. Oh, you're right, that was Saturday night mass. Yeah, I was thinking it was noon, because I serve at the noon mass this week.
Speaker 1:Anyway, that was a curiosity because her friend who came is not Catholic and had just never been to a mass before, and so everyone's like what the heck is this? And so trying to explain like it's a really cool thing, yeah.
Speaker 2:One, and it's it might.
Speaker 1:I wonder what the difference is between that kind of consecration and the, the vows. I guess that they take as like, a cloistered nun or something like that, cause I know she's still just goes and lives out in the world, she's, um, you know, she's going to get a job, go to work and all that kind of stuff, um, but I wonder, in the the, the rites, the rituals of it, I wonder how different it is. Oh, like what?
Speaker 2:the, the missile, how the missile is different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and how, like the whole process and kind, of kind of thing, Cause I've seen, um, where they prostrate themselves like a priest does during their ordination and that's, and that's pretty neat. So anyway, I don't know just there's all that little bit of I don't even know how to say it Just how all of that has developed over time. Something about that is really interesting to me, because everything means something, all of it is a sign of something.
Speaker 2:It does, and it's all in reaction to God as well, in a certain different way. And it makes a lot of sense, once you understand it, that some people are called to serve God through cloistered adoration and prayer and even penance, that they're basically working on behalf of the world. You're never going to see them, hopefully. You know about them, but they're not there, like they're as humble as humble can be, because they're trying to pray and do penitential acts on behalf of the world, whereas other people have a charism where they're called to serve in education, right Like the Legionaries of Christ, right that order, and then the Regnum Christi women. They serve at the Highland School and they teach and like they live in the world. My aunt was who is jillian's godmother? She, um, she was a nun with the uh, incarnate word in corpus christi.
Speaker 1:Pull the mic a little bit. I can, yes, just a little bit aggressively, yeah aggressive oh there you go. Oh, your aunt, your aunt.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, so Aunt Mary, sister Rosemary, was at Incarnate Word in Corpus Christi and we went probably once every month or two and had lunch with her and had mass with her and got to meet the sisters, and I wish Catholics today, kids growing up, saw more of that and and I kind of like it's exciting to to hear more about it coming out and maybe seeing you know more of that in people's lives so that they can see like what is, what is it like to truly abandon your life to God, to truly give up your life to God and then understand I'm not being asked to do that. I'm not being asked to do that, I'm just being asked to do a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I've, I've, I heard it once before too. The thing that is it's, it's kind of missing from our church is, once upon a time, everywhere there were sisters and nuns and stuff. So you'd see father and you'd see mother, right, you'd get the fullness of all the roles within the church. And there's so few. But the church I grew up going to in Flower Bluff, there was a little convent behind them. They were all Filipino, that's the only thing I can remember. They're probably Dominican, but I was just. There was just nuns all over the place, right, and so you, under you, you were at least exposed. If you didn't understand because most kids don't understand anything that they're exposed to but you're exposed to the different roles of the church and you have those beautiful experiences of um, like motherhood, and that femininity and like what it is uh, to, to, to behave in such a way. Um, I thought all that was.
Speaker 2:it was really helpful and it's good and and I wish and maybe you're right, maybe hopefully there's more of that starting to to come back, but I think, think especially with more of the charismatic Catholic movement, you see a little bit more of that, but I mean, it's not for everyone right. Like you go through a discernment process for the consecrated life, just as you would for the priesthood or the diaconate.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And ultimately I mean that's a very Catholic thing. You know, we expect marriage, that you're discerning before you make that decision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. When I think in in kind of your point earlier, where I'm not even being asked to do this, that's helpful to go. Okay, I know I'm not being, you know, called to that, or a lot of times people are just against, like they fight against perhaps, what they're being called to, but that seed is planted, but either way, it shows them that there is something more and just being exposed to it, especially when you have people who wear their habits, because that recognition too there's this person set aside. But then if you are reflective about it, you understand, like you're baptized, you are set apart as well. I don't wear a habit, right, but what does it mean to be set apart in this world? And then you've got all these examples and slowly you can start integrating these thoughts and stuff into your lifestyle yes and it's I mean I think there's.
Speaker 2:We should celebrate the differences right. There are many gifts, but one spirit there are many parts, but one body. We tend towards envy or pride or other things that make me think, well, I'm not doing that, um, but that's not your charism, that's not what you're called to do yeah you're called to serve the world and to serve god, but like there's a great diversity in the ways that we can and should serve and um, as long as we're moving the ball down the field as long as we're constantly progressing right?
Speaker 2:Like are you continuing to take steps towards God? Are you taking steps away from God? Like I said, I talked about St Ignatius like are you in consolation? Are you moving towards God? Are you in desolation? Are you moving away from God?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So today we're going to try and focus on the integration of what you've been learning. So today we're going to try and focus on the integration of what you've been learning. So first, your first vocation is marriage, right? So how has your diaconate formation so far affected your vocation of marriage?
Speaker 2:I think positively, no-transcript, but I mean having a conversation about why I might want to do this and what it would mean in her life and making sure she understood that I want her to be truthful and honest about how she feels about what we're doing, because you're not, I mean you, you. There are circumstances where the deacon's wife is not prominent, but I bet a dollar you know at least one or two of our deacon's wives, right, um, and like that's a burden, like that's a burden that I want to take on and I can't take that on if she doesn't want to take on the burden that necessarily comes with it of you know, having to be the deacon's wife and, and she's always so, robin is extremely empathetic. She, like, she inspires confidence, and so she's always got people coming up to her and telling her stuff.
Speaker 1:Um, it's really kind of weird. I don't know if you've seen it. Yeah, it's like people just go to robin and start telling him every, or telling her everything.
Speaker 2:She's an amazing listener and she's so empathetic and she cares um and she's like it has a gift for saying the right thing. So of course they do um because she makes them feel better and she's like it has a gift for saying the right thing.
Speaker 2:So of course they do Um cause she makes them feel better. She's like a reverse energy vampire, like she is, like she's not. She's giving energy all the time and um, and it's like that's something that we've got to talk through. So we've we have talked a lot more um about it. Now I mean it. It doesn't help that the kids are both moved out.
Speaker 1:Lot more um about it now, I mean it. It doesn't help that the kids are both moved out.
Speaker 2:It doesn't hurt. The kids are both moved out, right, so like we've got more time together, right, and I think that's good. Um, I think that because this kind of a process, this kind of focus on God, is going to change me I think unnecessarily it changes the way that I relate with her. I hope that she finds me more patient and more loving and more grateful, but I mean, they're like I'm, I'm I'm not sure that I could point to something that was like a binary change at any point that I flipped from one side to another and I'm just going to be patient.
Speaker 2:That God will work in his time in me.
Speaker 1:Would you say that, as we and maybe you've experienced this and this is what you're describing as we grow in our intimacy with God, that we naturally grow in our intimacy with others?
Speaker 2:I think it's unavoidable, because God is communion. He's love, he's mercy, he's so many things, but he is communion, three in one, the triune God. And how can you possibly get closer to God without being more communicative of yourself, without wanting to live in intimacy and union with those around you? Yeah, right, and you talked on a previous episode recently about the Pope, john Paul II. I never know where you put the saint. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's Pope, st John Paul II.
Speaker 2:And the theology of the body, and I mean that is such a fascinating revelation that God made us man and woman because he was trying to lead us down the rosy path. You know our stupid, limited, broken minds towards what is true joy it's living in communion with others, in peace and harmony, and love, true self-giving love. So I don't think it's possible to get closer to God and not get closer to the ones around you, and not even that. But you can't possibly do that and not be more forgiving, more grateful, more tolerant, because God changes us, we, we don't change him. The closer we become to him, the more we reflect him yeah.
Speaker 1:So then it would make sense if, as you said, you've had a degree of difference in conversations with robin lately. It would make sense, as you continue to grow in your intimacy with God, that your marriage would become more intimate even.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it absolutely has, and I spend more time with her than probably I did early in our marriage, even in spite of work. I'd rather spend time with her than some of the stuff that I used to do, like I'm not trying to get away as much, more centered and being more, and not being centered like I'm doing yoga, but being centered on christ, being centered on um, on what true joy is and on what it means to to be a disciple, kind of everything feels a little bit more stable.
Speaker 1:Right, it's. It's not so much that things in the world are not going on around you constantly, but there's that peace. That, like I. That's how I interpret you saying your centeredness where it's, but it's okay, yeah well, and there's focus too, right like when a figure skater spins around.
Speaker 2:They're always focusing on one spot, right, um, so they don't lose their balance and don't get insanely dizzy. Um, and that's true for us. If we're focused on that one important spot of god, then, um then that world and around us is not as impactful what about as a dad um?
Speaker 2:I, I think that I've been working since I first had kids to be a better dad, um, but it this coincides with the kids moving out, and so I don't know that it, um, I don't know that. I see as much there. I hope that I'm more patient and more loving. Um, I've not had the conversation with them, and I need to, but I haven't had the conversation with them about what do you think about all this? Like, what do you think about what I'm trying to do? Like, do you have any thoughts on it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but.
Speaker 2:I mean I got, like grant for father's day, got me um a St Stephen medal, st Stephen being the first martyr yeah, it was. You know, jillian got me a card that said she prayed a rosary for me for father's day. So I I think I must be changing a little bit in their mind. But I'm not looking at it from that lens as much. I guess is is part of the answer that I'm not trying to figure out. Hey, how is this going to that lens? As much, I guess, is part of the answer that I'm not trying to figure out. Hey, how is this going to change?
Speaker 1:me as a father.
Speaker 2:Because I don't. I want to focus on the principle and not the interest. I want to focus on what's truly important, which is getting closer to God with the full trust and hope that doing so is going to make me a better man, is going to make me a better father, is going to make me a better husband. But you still got to focus. You can't focus on those extra benefits, mm-hmm. I had a professor early on that said look, don't go chasing dollars. Go do something that you love and the dollars will come. And what he was trying to say was, as soon as you get focused on the dollars, you're going to get distracted and you're going to fail. Focus on what's truly important. The long pole in the tent raises the most canvas. Right, focus on the long pole. If you can get that long pole up, you're going to raise more of the tent than focusing on the canvas itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I heard something so extremely similar, and I don't remember where I heard it, but very recently and it turned a little light bulb on in my head. Right, something clicked Guarding the things in your life that you're struggling with. I'll just throw some out there because, again, I can't remember the details surrounding what was said. But let's say you're struggling with lust. Instead of focusing on not struggling with lust, instead pursue Jesus, because if your focus is pursuing Jesus, he'll take care of the rest.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so that's the kind of thing like don't go chasing the dollars, go focus on something else and the rest will take care of itself.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:And so, instead of focusing on I want to be a better husband, I want to be a better dad. I want to be a better, whatever right employee. A better husband, I want to be a better dad. I want to be a better, whatever right Employee. Focus on pursuing Jesus, walking with him and naturally, through osmosis or whatever right Like, you'll start absorbing what all these other things should look like and he will change them like and he will change them.
Speaker 2:He will well and he'll. He'll protect us from the accuser who attacks us where we're weakest, who attacks always where his accusations can make us turn back away from god to doubt. I mean, that's what desolation really is is that we're listening to the voice of the devil as he tells us these lies about you're not worthy, you don't really love God. He doesn't really love you, like when we listen to that.
Speaker 1:That's where we fail, but when we grasp tightly to Christ, he can't attack us, and so we are thereby strengthened to be the men and women that were meant to be yeah, I was having a conversation just the other day about confession, to how people have such different experiences when it comes to that reconciliation, which all of the different experiences in my mind show how powerful reconciliation is. And so you have some people. They come out of confession, they're like on top of the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, you have some people that come out and feel nothing or they immediately go. Well, he only gave me, like one, our Father, like that's not enough, right.
Speaker 2:Right, which is a crazy misunderstanding of what's going on there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, but what it goes to show is when we're closest to Jesus, in that moment of intimacy with him, that reconciliation where he says, no, I love you no matter what, immediately after Satan attacks You're not worthy of what you just received.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:You need to do something to earn what he just told you, Right? And it just kind of keeps playing with your mind and so I don't know, I just I find it interesting.
Speaker 2:Did Robin ever tell you her story about her first confession? No, so we were up at St Mark in Denton and Father George is a really quiet, shy priest from India and she had just finished RCA. She took her first confession. She leapt up and hugged him real tight after the confession and he was like oh and she's like. Nobody told me you're not supposed to hug the priest oh, that's so funny.
Speaker 1:It's so funny. I guess it's not against the rules though no yeah, just go hug a priest.
Speaker 2:No, it's not the during christmas, um, we took the kids um when they were younger and they, like he, gave them both cookies because, like he, like he had parishioners giving him all sorts of Christmas treats and he's not going to eat 800 cookies. Yeah, so we're like we probably need to reinforce with the children that they don't get cookies every time they go to confession.
Speaker 1:Right, that's not. It's like getting a sucker. They got God's grace, but you know, yeah, have a cookie. It's usually not in cookie form. Holy cookies, that's funny. Okay, so you're integrating these things in your life.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you, though, the biggest thing that I'm integrating has been the divine office, and I mean, if I could snap my fingers and make like one change that I thought would change the church and change the parishioners and change all of us, it would be. Everybody starts praying the divine office every day morning prayer and evening prayer, every single day yeah um, it's. I mean, if you're not doing it, you need to. It will change such a beautiful thing I.
Speaker 1:There was a period of time many years ago where I tried, probably like right after our first chirp or something like that, and I either didn't understand it or couldn't get it, like you know, didn't quite know what to do, kind of thing yeah but nowadays there's like apps and stuff. Well, there are apps, and so that's that's so.
Speaker 2:The book is really confusing because they're trying to take a little book, yeah you know a thousand plus pages if it's all printed out and get it into like the one handheld book.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Um, but there is a book called, uh, the divine office for dodos, that um, that little angels carries, and um, and I'll lend you a copy if you're ever interested if you've still got your you know Christian prayer book. But the apps like you can get the iBrevery, you can get the Divine Office app. Uccb has like the Divine Office on their website every day. Divineofficeorg has it like all.
Speaker 2:I think both of those apps will actually pray it like podcast-y style with you so that you can listen to it and then pray along on the app. But I think it is beautiful to learn to pray it from the book because you start understanding how it's structured. But truly to me, the most important part of that is praying with the Psalms and the canticles.
Speaker 2:Right Canticle meaning song. So you are praying along with all, but I think, like three of the imprecatory Psalms, which I guess they figured isn't really totally appropriate, the imprecatory Psalms being the ones where it was like God, please smite him, cause he deserves it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Which is, you know, probably not quite as entertaining as the end of the book of Jonah. Yeah, and there were many cattle as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But book of jonah, yeah, and there were many cattle as well, yeah, but um, it is so enriching. Like you first of all, you begin to realize that's what the psalms were like. They're not just. Here's some poems like they were prayers. All 150 of them were prayers, some of them short.
Speaker 2:You know one that was two lines yeah um some of them incredibly long yeah but they're all prayers and they're all models for prayer for us and because they cover all seasons yeah joy and sadness and loss and fear, like they will enrich your prayer life, they will teach you how to pray and, ultimately, they are practiced for our ultimate destination, because our ultimate destination is the liturgy of the afterlife. It is to be in communion with God and to worship Him right.
Speaker 2:And to praise Him. And how many of us are in the habit of praising God every morning and every evening? How many of us are in the habit of making sure that, regardless of what's going on in my life, I'm going to recognize that God is beyond me, that he holds us in existence, that he continues to do it out of love and that I should be grateful for everything that I've had? Yeah, element, and probably the most impactful, because it is, um, it's changed my prayer life and it's changed a lot of my outlook, and it has been a source of patience and humility and comfort. You know a couple of times that I can go back to what's important. I can go back to what like what my center is, to what the most important thing is, which is God. But the other thing that it really does, which is great, is it keeps you in touch with liturgical seasons. So today is the Solemnity of St Peter and Paul, right Unless I was going to Mass for Saturday morning Mass.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't have known that if I wasn't praying in the office.
Speaker 1:Yep, yeah, yeah, was going to mass for saturday morning mass. I wouldn't have known that if I wasn't praying the office. Yep, yeah, yeah. So one of the things that I started doing, I guess, a handful of years ago, whenever the bible in a year first came out, I did that, so I integrated that into my morning prayer time. Yep, when that was done, I was like, well, heck, now, what do I do right? So then start over. Well, so I thought about it and and um the.
Speaker 1:What I did instead is I started reading the daily, um daily mass readings the readings from the missile yeah, yeah and what's interesting too, thinking of like my growth in it is, at first I I would just kind of skip through the psalm and I would just do the Old Testament gospel, and I never really thought about why, other than in my mind it must have somehow been trivialized right. And then that turned into a habit and there was something about probably a year ago or so where I just kind of had this epiphany that I was skipping out on something that I shouldn't be.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:And so then, I started reading the psal every morning, the Psalm that goes with the Mass in the daily reading.
Speaker 1:And they're beautiful, and of course, I'd heard them all because I did Bible in a Year and all that stuff. But there is something I think that is, sometimes, depending on the Mass readings, the Old Testament readings might be a little bit hard or difficult to find some kind of contemplative inspiration in. You're like, okay, now they're under siege or something like that. You're like, what is that? Am I under siege in my life, Lord, Right, but the Psalms almost always there is something that you can stop and think about and reflect on when you read the Psalms. That's right, and so I found that to be extremely helpful. Yeah, Maybe sometimes even more so than the Gospels, but probably because I'm just so familiar with the Gospels because you hear them all the time. Right, oh, he healed the leper. Okay, I've heard it a thousand times, but I've never really paid attention to the Psalms the way I am now, and so now every time I read the full office.
Speaker 2:So office of readings morning prayer evening prayer, midday prayer and night prayer, then you will go through the full Bible over the course of that. And so Sacrosanctum Concilium calls the divine office truly the voice of the bride addressed to her bridegroom. It is the very prayer which Christ himself, together with his body, addresses to the Father. It is the prayer of the church, and it is meant to pray constantly. Right, the exhortation of St Paul to pray constantly.
Speaker 1:is that prayer?
Speaker 2:And again, it's for our benefit.
Speaker 2:We are benefiting the world when we pray together as a church.
Speaker 2:We're sanctifying the world when we pray together as a church, but what that means is that we're sanctifying ourselves, that we are being sanctified by the prayer of thousands, tens of thousands, millions of other people who are praying along with us, and we're being uplifted and we're being filled with the Holy spirit and we're being changed into our original form of what we were meant to be.
Speaker 2:So the um, the beauty of the divine office and the beauty of praying, along with the Psalms and with the prayers of the cycle of the liturgy, is let me make another quote the excellence of Christian prayer lies in this that it shares, in the very love of the only begotten son for the father and in that prayer which the son put into words in his earthly life and which still continues unceasingly in the name of the whole human race and for its salvation, throughout the universal church and all its members.
Speaker 2:Christ's sacrifice, his priestly prayer, his teachings, all of that continues in the Mass, All of it continues in the Divine Office, All of it continues in the liturgy in which we participate, and liturgy is what we were made for. We were made for worship. There's a book and maybe we can get Father Stephen to participate in an episode about this, but Pope Benedict, when he was just the Cardinal, wrote this book called the called um the spirit of the liturgy um which was based on a uh, a Spanish uh, I think authors um earlier version of that, but um, he talks about the fact that the purpose of the, of the purpose, I mean religion.
Speaker 2:Father Mike says all the time religion, the center of religion is worship, and the center of worship is sacrifice. Yep, so that sacrifice is the liturgy. When we are participating in the Mass, we're not just participating in an observation. Heaven touches the earth and we're a part of that heavenly choir of angels and saints. We're part of. You know what the shepherds saw the night of the nativity? We're a part of that heavenly choir of angels and saints. We're part of. You know what the shepherds saw the night of the nativity. We're part of all that.
Speaker 2:Yeah and um, there's a, there's like, there's so much, I think, behind the idea of liturgy and behind what it means to worship, and behind, even, like, the cosmos is built in such a way that it is the type of temple that proceeds. You know that, that that proceeds all of our earthly temples and is still just a reflection of the heavenly temple. Um, but our liturgy is a participation in that. So, like when we're praying, whether we're just praying for ourselves and our family or we're praying along at mass um or we're praying the divine office we're we're making that spiritual sacrifice, we're giving of ourselves to god and hopefully we are listening to him and receiving the gifts he's given us and giving those gifts back to him yeah, there.
Speaker 1:It makes me think of a couple things. One, how, how so many of us only experience where heaven and earth touches once a week? How many of us experience where heaven and earth touches at Easter and Christmas only?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Sometimes at Easter and Christmas. Yeah, you know what I mean. Sometimes at Easter and Christmas. You know what I mean, because you're just missing out. You know what I mean. There's just, oh, it almost hurts your heart because it's like whenever you see somebody who abuses himself, right, or somebody who's hurting, or somebody who doesn't realize how much they're loved, kind of thing, somebody who's hurting, and your heart breaks for them because you know they're made for so much more than what their experience is Right. It also makes me think I was having this conversation, right. It also makes me think I was having this conversation. I think it was this week this young lady that I work with and she's native Spanish speaker and was raised Catholic.
Speaker 1:I was like yeah you want to come to Mass, we can go to the Spanish Mass and she goes. Well, she knows I don't speak Spanish, she goes. You're not going to understand anything. That's going on, not true? And I was well, yeah, I guess, to be more precise, you're not going to understand. You won't understand what the priest is saying, particularly, I think, as she was implying during the homily, yeah, and or, I guess, the readings, when they're reading the scripture. And I was like, well, first of all, I can read along in English, that's fine. And second of all, if the only thing I miss out on is the homily, that's okay, because it's about more than that. And that was like a mind-blown kind of thought for her, like what do you mean? It's about more than what the guy is saying. And I guess she's not well catechized.
Speaker 2:It's like Protestant point of view. Yeah, like the highlight is the preaching.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Not the liturgy of the word. Yeah, and there is no liturgy of Eucharist anywhere else.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so it was again this misunderstanding. And, like I was saying, the first part is how many people are missing out on the fullness of what it means to be a disciple of Jesus? Yeah, that, through prayer and through working in your community. And you're not going to church, you're not going to Mass to be entertained or to hear good music or to even necessarily understand what's being said. You're going to pray, you are offering sacrifice, which is why you can go to the Vietnamese Catholic Church down the street, and it's fine, you can go to the Saro Malabar Catholic Church.
Speaker 2:Not even Western right, I mean Latin right, it's Byzantine, but it is valid mass and you receive the body and blood of Christ while you're there. Yeah, it's also disappointing because we have so many people who believe that faith and knowledge are inconsistent, that faith and science are inconsistent with each other, that, um, you know they believe the lies of the accuser, like this is just a fairy tale. It's not really true and you know, other than patience and living the gospel, I don't know that there's a better way to get through to anybody who's convinced themselves of that, until they're ready, until they've come to a point in their lives where they need to, they realize they need to change, they realize that what they're doing and how they're living isn't working.
Speaker 2:I mean it is astonishing how often we have to hit rock bottom before you can make a change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, father, and Steven and I have talked about that before is why does it seem like we have to? We have to be on the path of destruction. We have to integrate our discipleship into our lives so that we're— because I can't convert people, jesus converts people right, I can't save people, jesus saves people. If I integrate my discipleship fully into my life, then, through example, people will be drawn to Christ. And they're not drawn to me, they're drawn to Christ because I'm a shadow of the glory of God. Right At best, right, right.
Speaker 1:So another statement that was said was well, I can kind of be religious without having to go to church. And I just started smiling and I was like I don't think you understand is what I wanted to say. It's like I'm married and I love, love my wife and I love her with all my heart. I think about her all the time, but I never go see her. When I have the opportunity to go see her, by choice, not by necessity, like my job puts me on the other side of the world and I can't go see her. But I literally have the chance to see her every single day, but I choose not to. It's not much of a relationship Right, even though I claim to love her so much, and so that disconnect.
Speaker 2:It's. I mean it is. It's a logical inconsistency that's earth shatteringly huge. If you start to talk through those first principles, you know the, the logical necessity that Father Stephen's fond of talking about. But it's. You can't be in relationship with somebody If you have no intimacy, it's just, it's impossible. And if Christ truly died and rose, then that is the single most important fact of our lives, more important than anything else that can or ever will be. So you can't tell me that you're Christian if you don't act like that's the single most important fact of your life. Yeah, I get it Like we're all broken and so we all fail and we all sin, but I'm still spiritual. Yeah, kind of thing Like well, I'm still spiritual.
Speaker 1:Yeah, kind of thing. Like well, what does?
Speaker 2:that mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like what is your, what is your center, what is your North star? What do you? What do you put your faith in? What do you put your hope in?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's also is is God a vending machine for you or is God your father? You know so, as you're learning all these things and you're integrating these things in your life, what has been the part of your life where you consistently go oh, I suck, you know, like this is this thing that I have to keep coming back to, because I know God is healing me in this.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I'm aware of it, but man, I'm just I'm not very good at this thing. Do you have something like that?
Speaker 2:I think it's. I mean, I think it's a big bundle of things, but I think so much of it kind of comes down to the need to control, and you and I talked about that even when we first met, about the need to control and the need to be in control and the fact that none of us are in control. But like I mean, if there's one thing that's going to make me have a bad day, it's something going wrong. That's going to make me have a bad day. It's something going wrong which is like when I say it is the silliest thing, I could possibly say right, like of course things are going to go wrong, it is baked into the pie. That's kind of like owning a beater of a truck and then being surprised when you have to take it into the shop yeah, what do you mean?
Speaker 1:it broke well. What do you expect, right?
Speaker 2:like, what did I expect? Um, but like, it'll get me in a bad mood. It can get me angry you get me snapping at people. It can make me impatient, it can make me ungrateful, um, it can make me want to turn to you know, those things that I think are going to make me feel better, which I, you know, I intellectually recognize, don't like. All of those things.
Speaker 2:It ultimately is that desire and that need to be in control, and I think that, being a part of the formation process, I'm going to be told like, this is what you're going to do, this is where you're going to do it, like I won't be in control, and I think that I just, you know, I got to keep getting beat over the head with the lesson of you know, this is what it means to be patient, this is what it means to be humble, this is what it means to, you know, accept the will of God in your life. I struggle with that, probably more than anything else, and it probably stems from, you know, the loss of my father when I was 15, and you know, and all the stuff again that we've talked about before.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But ultimately my father when I was 15, and you know, and all the stuff again that we've talked about before, yeah, but ultimately, um, I, I can't do anything but offer that up to God. I can't do anything. But you say all that I am good and bad is is for you do something with it, do what you will with it. But I do think it helps tremendously to have other men and women around you who love you as a brother and sister, who are praying for you and who have their own challenges and their own sins, to realize, like I don't have to be that person and I don't have to accept that I can continue to turn to Christ and I can continue to turn back and ask for that help and pray for that help and and offer that up. And I don't know that I'm ever going to be fully cleansed of that until the second coming. Like I don't know I'll ever be completely free of that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because Satan's going to keep attacking me at my weak points, right, he's going to keep attacking me there. But I hope and I pray and I feel like I'm making some progress and ultimately, I mean, it was kind of a big revelation to realize, dude, you're not in control like even the least little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, isn't it weird, too, the way that we will. Well, some people struggle. I guess I'm fine being told what to do, because I maintain this lie in my head that, okay, you've told me to go do this thing, but I'm going to be. I'm.
Speaker 1:I'm going to be in control of how I now go do this thing, and so it's. It's weird. It's like, oh yeah, you know, no, I'm. I'm fine being asked to do things because I'm still in control More ha ha, it's so weird. It's like everybody who struggles with control issues should be put in a room and somebody should dump out a box of 100 gerbils or something like that, and they should be told to wrangle them back up, put them back in the box.
Speaker 2:We all have this secret narrator in our head that's telling us a story about what just happened to us. Yeah, and it's almost always filled with, you know, lies or distortions. Like you know, I came in and the first thing that happened during my day, when I was going to go try to get other things done, is I had an emergency crop up, you know, and my boss's boss is asking for something, and now I've got to go reschedule and I've got to go, you know, and it's going to be stressful and you know, and like that is a story. And then there's this other story that is the identical set of circumstances and the identical set of facts, but that story is you're being given yet another opportunity to show your value to the organization and to be somebody who they can put their trust in and to help in a way that nobody else can help.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they needed someone and it was you. You're the person they thought of, right. You're the person they trusted to solve this emergency thing that came up.
Speaker 2:And it's like you know, that person's attacking me.
Speaker 2:Okay, I can tell myself that story, that that person is a terrible person and they're attacking me and they don't love me and they want me to fail and all the other things that I might want to tell myself, so I can feel like a martyr.
Speaker 2:Or I can get off that particular cross and say that person's probably having a bad day and that person's probably under pressures that I have no idea about, and that person is struggling and they're fearful or they're hurting, and so they're coming to me in a way that isn't the way I want and, by the way, they know nothing about me, so they don't know what I want, they don't know how to interact with me effectively. I can tell myself that different story and um, and let's like. This is one of the good things I think about the idea of um, the, the kind of the um, the ignation practice of I can't remember the word um at the end of the day when you reflect on your day. Oh, I know what you're talking about the Ignatian practice of. I can't remember the word um at the end of the day when you reflect on your day.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know what you're talking about. What is that called?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Think of it later. Yeah, Um, but when you think about how did my day go and, um, and and where was I examined of conscience?
Speaker 1:There you go, yeah, yeah Um.
Speaker 2:There you go, yeah, yeah. So the daily examine, like if you're thinking about those things. You have a chance to retell the story. You have a chance to examine that story in the light of Christ. You have a chance to ask yourself and I shared this with Grant, I think, so many years ago, the first time I saw it on the internet Did you really have a bad day, or did you just have a bad five minutes that you milked all day?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah bad five minutes that you milked all day. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I think it is like it's. One of the greatest blessings in our lives is that most of us get 80 years for our you know, stupid, recalcitrant, stubborn selves to learn the lessons that god's put us on here on the earth, to learn which is this how you love, this is what you were made for, and I think that those practices help us. I think that divine office helps us to grow closer to God and to learn to truly love him and glorify him in our lives. I think that the daily exam I mean people who reject the Catholic Church are rejecting a vast treasure trove of gifts that we were given because God wants to draw us closer to him, and it's a shame because they're free, like there's more gifts than you could possibly ever consume and they're all just for the asking Come, have food and drink.
Speaker 1:Yeah, eat and drink without cost right.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. It's so interesting and I keep reflecting on how, as you continue to grow in intimacy with Christ through this diaconate formation, how that's going to affect how you do everything right, how it's going to transform your life.
Speaker 2:It is and it's certainly in ways I won't know Like 50% chance that I'll be assigned to a parish other than the one that I currently attend, just based on what's been happening recently, like that's, that's okay. Um, presumably, if I get there, the Bishop is going to have a conversation with me. We're going to talk about what are some of the ways that I could serve and, regardless of what I think, I will have sworn a vow of obedience and he'll tell me how I can serve and maybe I'll be granted yet another opportunity to practice humility and patience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Cause I'm never going to be able to get too many.
Speaker 1:No, it always makes me. Whenever somebody says even just the word patience, I always think of skip, where he's. Like God, give me patience right now. It just always makes me laugh. That's funny. So what's?
Speaker 2:next. So what's next is I'm waiting to hear back on the application for aspirancy. I'm prayerfully hopeful that Father Edwin didn't say, no, this guy's a putz. I think all the stuff that we went through like it all went fine, so um. So in september we'll start back up. We're going to be in there, um, for a full weekend once a month um.
Speaker 2:So saturday morning to sunday evening, including overnight, in the casas at saint rafael, it'll be more classwork, it'll probably be some other things, but they haven't really told us what. I assume we'll have adoration, we'll have some fellowship and I know we'll do masses together and those kinds of things, as well as the cohorts. And after that second year, unless I discern out, like the third year, and after that second year, um, unless I discern out, like the third year, we start with um. I think it's the the wives no longer must attend, but um, I start doing once a month, friday, uh evening, and all day Saturday at university of Dallas for more Um. We go on, uh the St Raphael for day long um sessions that are probably not academic, yeah. To St Raphael for day long sessions that are probably not academic, yeah. And then I think third year is when we would start with RCAA at another parish so that we can get practice.
Speaker 1:Because it's six years of formation.
Speaker 2:It's six years of formation in the diocese. Yeah, I love that it is. It's really fascinating because I have a colleague who was a deacon in his church of Christ and I mean, like I don't even know if he would have. Like it's like the council of elders said it was okay, you know, and they, you know, like they vote every year, and so I think it's pretty. It's probably pretty alien to to some of our separated brethren the idea that you need to discern for six years because you are making a permanent commitment to the church and to her people to serve in the role of christ yeah, it's, and it's also that the thought the the difference between I want to do this thing or I'm being called to do this thing.
Speaker 1:Am I truly being?
Speaker 2:called yeah, yeah that's. I mean, that's an opportunity for us every day, yeah, what am I being called to do? What am I being called to do? What am I being called to do next?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and in this moment, yeah, right, well, cool, well, man, we talk, we talk a bunch, so we do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Let's uh, let's wrap this up, and then you know what. Let's just do like a bonus we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Oh, you know what we're going to talk about some of the speculative theology. Oh yeah, I've already got one topic for you Aliens yes.
Speaker 1:Yes, all right, guys, we'll see you next time for aliens. God bless.
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