My Friend the Friar
A podcast where we learn about our faith and share what it takes to live a Catholic Christian life through conversations and contemplations with my friend the friar, a Discalced Carmelite Priest.
My Friend the Friar
Ancient Sources of Truth for Modern Faith with Chris Colleps
In this episode, John and Chris go on a profound journey into the intricate world of biblical translations, specifically comparing John 14:12-28 in the NIV and Catholic versions. You'll learn the deeper significance behind Jesus' repeated use of "amen," extending beyond the simple "very truly" and delving into its profound implications, especially in pivotal passages like John 6.
Next, we tackle the complexities of interpreting scripture and the critical role the Church plays in maintaining doctrinal consistency through the lens of St. Vincent of Lerins. We'll explore historical figures like St. Ignatius of Antioch and early Church councils to illustrate how the Church's authority has been pivotal in distinguishing orthodox teachings from heresies. Our discussion highlights heretical groups such as the Donatans and Arians, showing that debates over doctrine and authority have been a persistent issue since before the 4th century and remain relevant in today's theological discourse.
Finally, we reflect on the journey of faith, examining the challenges and beauty of religious belief within Christianity. Using metaphors like shattered safety glass and spider webs, we illustrate the disorder in the teachings of various Christian denominations while emphasizing the importance of seeking a deeper and consistent understanding of faith. We'll share heartfelt discussions on the role of evidence in forming beliefs and the enduring relevance of these theological debates through the ages. Join us as we navigate these rich and complex topics, offering insights that promise to deepen your understanding of faith and history.
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Speaker 2:But I was like man, I was thinking about it the other day.
Speaker 1:What were?
Speaker 2:they called my Pet Monsters.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Bonus episode Chris is on his phone.
Speaker 2:I'm looking up my Pet Monsters Shopping the internet.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I was just looking at it. It just came up the I can't believe those things like 800 yeah 749, because I was gonna buy one, because I missed it, because I had one when I was a kid. Oh, here's one. It'll 249 dollars but anyway I was just looking at it because, um, I was looking up that verse, uh, in the one about the you can do greater things than I know, and one of the little windows, because I have little windows oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So when I went back to the windows it was uh, my pet monster was there and uh, and so I was like looking at it because I miss my Pet Monster.
Speaker 1:My Pet Monster. Do you remember Teddy Rupskin?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I remember Teddy Rupskin. They have a new version of Teddy Rupskin, but you read to it and it records your voice and then you can sit it in there with your kid. Oh interesting, While they're going to sleep and they can hear your voice. Yeah.
Speaker 1:What was the verse in?
Speaker 2:John. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, what chapter was it it is? Let me pull it back up. It is John 14, 12 through 28.
Speaker 1:All right. So you want to know something interesting, because here, so you read yours, I'm going to read my version, all right. So, and this is oh yeah, do you know what translation? Yeah, it's the NIV.
Speaker 2:Okay, From biblecom, and I just Googled it, it says John 14, 12 through 28. Very truly, I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father and I will do whatever you ask in my name so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Speaker 1:All right, so mine is one of the approved Catholic versions. So it's the new American RE is what this app uses. But this is what I thought was interesting, cause I heard something about this once upon a time, one of those things that you just remember, the, the one random thing. Okay, so 14, you said yeah through 28.
Speaker 1:So 12 years starts very truly, or what Very truly, I tell you. Okay. So mine says amen, amen. I say to you, whoever believes in me will do the works that I do, and will do greater ones than these, because I'm going to the Father and whatever you ask in my name I will do so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Speaker 1:So it seems almost exactly the same except for yours starts very truly, and mine says amen, amen. So I saw I was watching this show where the uh, this group of, of, um, non-catholic Christians were doing all this. They're like, we want to do the most like accurate translation into English as we can.
Speaker 1:So we're going to go back to all the oldest sources of all of these you know, books and we're going to translate them, and the thing that stuck out to them is that Jesus says amen a lot. He says amen, amen, and in most of the non-Catholic Bible translations they'll either take one out or they will translate it as something like very truly, very truly. But, like we were talking about translation earlier, you lose something. You lose something in translation, and so the amen, amen, amen, amen is actually very purposeful, that he's saying that twice, that he's saying that twice, and so it's kind of like and now this is my own words, but it's like he's swearing on himself. So it's not just very truly, it's something much, much more than just very true, I'm telling you the truth.
Speaker 1:It's like I'm staking everything on this and so, anyway, when you said, very truly, I was like I wonder if that's an amen, amen, and so that's why I wanted to look it up, yeah, and I've heard that before, um, and I think I'm, and I I mean it's got to be dr wiles at the first baptist church, arlington.
Speaker 2:He's made comments about that, about the amen, amen. If you see, amen, amen, or if you start a sentence, if you like, if we're reading our niv version, or whatever and it starts very truly. He said you can, you can just put amen, amen into it, because he's saying I this isn't just me saying this, this is something that you really need to listen to.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like this is something that's very, very important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Well, and what's interesting too is like when you end a prayer with amen, right, and so it's like he is saying, like when he starts a sentence with amen, it's this hyper-importance, right, Because it's the thing that you say at the end. So he's starting it with it, but then he's doubling down on it kind of thing. Yeah, and so that's really, really interesting because in one of my favorite verses or parts of Scripture is in John 6, when he's talking about I am the bread of life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So many times he's like amen, amen. I say to you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of man, you have no life within you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right, so he's like starting with it.
Speaker 2:Amen, amen. Like you need to listen to this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, not only do you need to listen to this, but you can't not hear this kind of thing. This, yeah, not only do you need to listen to this, but you can't not hear this kind of thing. This is big.
Speaker 2:This is literally life and death right here.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, like amen, amen, you might want to perk your ears up. I've said a lot of things, but you might want to listen to this one. You might want to hear this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay. So this is going to be fun because I just want to pick your brain. I want to hear what your thoughts are. I've been reading I told you about this the other day I don't think I said it on the podcast, but I found I stumbled across this Saint Vincent so his name in Latin is like Vincentius or something like that and I stumbled across it and I don't know how I found it. Of course, I was watching some video and some guy mentioned him, so I looked it up and I find some like PDF of the Latin only, and I was like Google translating, trying to like figure out what it said. And then I realized I'm sure that somebody's already translated this to English. I just go look it up. So I bought the book and so St Vincent of Lorenz and Father Stephen, whenever he listens to this, is probably going to be rolling his eyes because he's probably said something about him like 17 times and I never heard it or it's just like right over my head or in one ear, out the other.
Speaker 1:Him, it was a. He converted to the Catholic Church and from I don't know what Protestant denomination, but he, so he converted, and this was one of the things and the way he said it was in the Matrix. We love our movie references around here, but I always mess this one up which it's the blue pill or the red pill? Which pill wakes you up? I don't remember, dang I, which it's the blue pill or the red pill? Which pill wakes you up? I don't remember, dang. I think it's the red pill.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That's why I want to remember or I could be, I don't remember, but the whole thing spoiler alert for anyone who's never seen it somehow. Um, if in in the movie, right, everyone's there plugged and everyone's they're plugged into like they're a human battery, asleep being fed this computer dream, right, and everything you experience is a program. But if you, this guy's offering Morpheus is offering Neo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, neo.
Speaker 1:Yeah, these pills. He's like two pills, red or blue. Right, you take one. You're going to go back to sleep. You'll wake up. This will all be a dream. You'll never. You're going to go back to sleep. You'll wake up. This will all be a dream You'll never know yeah, and you'll just move on with your life and everything will be the way. It is the red pill, I think.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:The other one. If you take it, you're going to know the truth and you're not going to like it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you'll know the truth.
Speaker 1:But you'll know it and all this is going to go away, and so he takes that when he wakes up, yeah, and then you got two more movies, right? So anyway, he said this guy was his red pill and he's like, oh no, so anyway. So this dude was um, he wrote this in 434 and it's called the common, the com comitory comonitory, like common ittery whatever, however you say that word.
Speaker 2:Yeah, however you say that.
Speaker 1:But as he writes it he's like this is to help me remember the things that I've learned and how to respond in different situations. So this is like he's writing it for himself. So he knows how to engage with people whenever something comes up, right. So this is like his note to self blah, blah, blah, right. And so his big thing is, um, how to combat heresies and um, in his mind and how to to stay true to the faith, right.
Speaker 1:So if somebody comes in with something like how do I know that that's not true? How do I stick to what's true? How do I know that it's true? Or the other thing is true, right. And for him it seems like if it's a novel idea, a new idea, and it has no historical like kind of bearing in the faith, he's like it's a heresy. It could sound completely legit, but if nobody has ever believed this before, then it's not part of the faith. Like someone's just making stuff up. So I've been dog-earing in here, um, just to kind of get your feedback. I don't know if I'll, if I'll read all of them to you, but there's a lot of them, I can see.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's not a very big book. Yeah, I was gonna say it's really really interesting.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, so here we go, from chapter two. It says but here someone perhaps will ask since the canon of Scripture is complete and sufficient of itself for everything, and more than sufficient, what need is there to join with it the authority of the Church's interpretation? He goes for this reason because, owing to the depth of Holy Scripture, all do not accept it in one and the same sense, but one understands its words in one way, another in another, so that it seems to be capable of as many interpretations as there are interpreters. And then he goes and he starts listing some heretics. So he goes, novatian expounds it one way. Now, this is in 434, so listen to how many novel ideas, heretics that the church had stood against to try to maintain the faith right, novatian expounds it one way. Sibelius, another I'm going to butcher some of these names Donatus, another. Arius, eunomius, macedonius, another Macedonius, another. Fontius, apollinarius, priscillian, another. Iovinian. Pelagius, celestis, another. Lastly, nestorius, another. So that's like 13 guys.
Speaker 1:Okay, therefore, it is very necessary, on account of so great intricacies, of such various error, that the rule for the right understanding of the prophets and the apostles should be 434. Yeah, what are your thoughts? Because, you're one of the big things. This is why I dog-eared that one before you share your thoughts. This is why I dogged that one before you share your thoughts is you've been wondering well, how do I know how someone is teaching or how they interpret the? Bible if that's the right way, or not?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm, just my spitfire answer to that is Jesus will tell you if it's right or wrong, if you have a strong enough relationship with him and if you study enough. Um, that's just kind of the spitfire, because in there, in all those big words and all those big names and stuff like that, what, what I? What I was thinking the whole time, you were saying that is it doesn't need defending, it doesn't need our defense in saying that this is right or wrong or anything like that. It can withstand itself, it can sustain itself. Jesus doesn't need us to defend him. Jesus can sustain himself and Jesus is going to continue to sustain himself Because it says in there whether you get it this way or whether you get it that way or whether you don't get it at all, scripture, scripture and it's going to be right. No matter who tries to dictate or translate it, it's going to be right.
Speaker 1:But how do you know if it's translated right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you have to have a good relationship with Jesus.
Speaker 1:So you think so, with all these people who are getting it wrong, you don't think they had a good relationship with Jesus.
Speaker 2:They may have. I don't know. I don't know.
Speaker 1:You know, these guys were all bishops and priests.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they could get it wrong, right.
Speaker 1:So then, how do you know if you're not getting it wrong?
Speaker 2:Man, that's a good question.
Speaker 1:So that's what this whole little book is about. That's why it's like what's the need If it's more than sufficient, what's the need?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Because that's a great point.
Speaker 1:That's why he goes to church. Yeah, the church is the only thing.
Speaker 2:The church is the only thing, and that's the concept of going to somebody else to figure out if it's right or wrong. I'm not saying that's wrong right Because we go to people who are smarter than us. If I want to learn math, I go to somebody that's smart in math. If I want to go to to, but math is is history. I go to somebody that's smarter than history me, but math is is way easier to determine if it's right or wrong, because numbers are numbers and they either equal or they don't yeah right.
Speaker 2:Um, scripture's not that easy right, but it can be. You know, like I don't know how to get it to be easy, I just man, that's a. That's a good question because, you know, I genuinely like to think that I have a lot of, you know, great ideas and flashy ways of answering things you know, yeah. But I mean, yeah, I'm sure those guys had great relationships with Jesus and their bishops. I don't know, man, you tell me, what about this one?
Speaker 1:So he says so, he says so he. This is like a little commentary on St Paul's letter to the Galatians. He says I should have underlined instead of just dogging the things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's a lot on those pages, huh.
Speaker 1:I know man. Um, okay, let me do this one. So it says which being the case. There's a lot on those pages. Huh, I know man. Okay, let me do this one. So it says receive any other doctrine than that which he has received from the church, that elect vessel, that teacher of the Gentiles, that trumpet of the apostles, that preacher whose commission was to the whole earth, that man who was caught up to heaven cries and cries again in his epistles to all, always, in all places. If any man preaches a new doctrine.
Speaker 2:Let him be accursed. So the answers in the church, uh, I mean, that's what he's saying. If you want to know if it's true or not, what does the church say about it?
Speaker 1:Yeah and so yeah, like this chapter is like why eminent men are permitted by God to become authors of novelties in the church, yeah, yeah. But some will ask how is it then that certain excellent persons and of position in the church are often permitted by god to preach novel doctrines, like it's just, it's funny, right.
Speaker 2:like he's just keeps chewing on it, but it blows my mind that this was written in 434, like it's the same things going on now yeah. It's the same exact things that are happening now. A priest now can ask the same questions that he asked in 434. So in 434, there's people that are like I know better than the scripture, I know better than what Jesus is saying and what God is saying. I know better in 434.
Speaker 1:Yeah, one of the, so one of the big heresies that he talks about. Okay, so heresy he defines as a teaching that is not consistent with the rest of the church. Okay, so the first time the word Catholic is used. Ignatius of Antioch. He was one of the disciples of Peter, who was the Bishop of Antioch. He was executed by the Romans in like 107 or something like that.
Speaker 1:And so he writes letters, and in his letters he says he calls the church Catholic and in his letters he says he calls the church Catholic and what the word Catholic means is basically universal or of the whole. So in this, so when, so that even applies right now. So the Catholic church is simply the word. Who believe the totality of the faith and we believe it everywhere, all at the same time. So there's not like a Southern Catholic or something like that, it's just Catholic right is what it's supposed to be.
Speaker 2:So, but there are different Catholics because there's Orthodox and then, because I know we have talked about this before.
Speaker 1:So how does? That play into that. So Orthodox, okay, so the words start to have certain meanings. So that's a good question, because it kind of plays into this. So the Christians who had heresies or who taught heresies and one of the ones he talks about a lot in this is whether God or sorry, whether Jesus was fully God or yeah, fully God or fully man or only one, or whatever, or it was like fully man with God's soul, or fully.
Speaker 2:God with man's soul, something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So everyone who taught one of these heresies, instead of being called Catholic, they were called by their heretical teaching. So instead of them adhering to the teaching, that is the whole faith, it's a very specific faith. So they would be like one of those guys' name was, I think, donation or something like that. So they're the Donatans, right. So instead of Catholics, they're Donatans. So then that makes sense now because of, or the Aryans, right, Because there was an Aryan heresy kind of thing. So anyway, so they were known by the teaching that they believed, and that makes sense kind of now, because, well, to a certain degree, because then you have Catholics and then you have Protestants and their heresy is to stand apart from the church, and so then you start. I guess the names can maybe get a little funny after that, but they all basically are. The name is trying to describe something about that. Basically, the name is trying to describe something about that community of faith.
Speaker 1:So, like Baptist, baptism is a big thing.
Speaker 2:Methodists. I guess the methodology is a big thing or something like that, right?
Speaker 1:Presbyterian like yeah, and so Orthodox means the how do I say this in light, the way I understand it is like really old, like the original kind of thing. Okay. So in this, a lot of times he says, like how do you know your faith, that you're following the right faith? It has to be Orthodox, okay. So well then, what does the Orthodox Church mean now? Well, now it kind of stands in opposition of the Catholic Church or not opposition, like we're against each other so much as we're not together. Right, it's a way to define a group kind of thing. But still it means that they follow the oldest form of the faith, right. And so in the Orthodox churches you do have this kind of weird thing that happens. So you have like the Greek Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church, and so it becomes very like culturally relevant, like where you are Like there's not a United States Orthodox Church. If there's an Orthodox Church here, it's going to be like a Russian Orthodox Church.
Speaker 1:So there's like a cultural link right, so it's kind of weird, but you do have some Orthodox churches who are still in communion with the Catholic Church and so they would be like Orthodox Catholic churches, so it's kind of a weird kind of way. So in the Catholic Church too, you have what are called rites, and the rite is kind of defining how the liturgy is performed, and so when somebody says Roman Catholic, it means it's the Latin right church, and so you can have, like, if there's some kind of Eastern Catholic church, they probably have a different right, which is something that's very traditional to that area and their culture, but it's still. It's all of the teachings, though. All of the faith is all still the same faith, it's just the method that they have. The church service is different, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:So it's just trying to understand it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The teachings are exactly the same in the Orthodox or Roman Orthodox as it is in the Western Orthodox. Is it a Western Orthodox or?
Speaker 1:No, I guess the farthest Western Orthodox would be just the Latin Rite Church, which is Roman Catholic.
Speaker 2:So what is the Catholic Church in the United States? The Latin Rite so it's the original teachings.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, yeah. So when the. So what's kind of interesting is when the, the father steven and I just did some. Really he's a big history nut so like he likes teaching about this stuff, and so we just did a couple episodes on this and I thought it was really fascinating how the whole schism between the east and the west right, um, a lot of this stuff happened because of political reasons had nothing to do with the church, because there was no separation from church and state.
Speaker 1:Back then, the king or emperor of a place was supposed to be Christian, and so he was supposed to be approaching his or engaging his relationships around the world like God first through him, instead of all you guys to God. Right, god was supposed to be coloring his ink, so to speak, and so everything was all just together. And so then there, of course, there's all these political things that go on Not everybody's a good person, kind of thing and then when Constantinople gets sacked by, I guess, the Muslims or something like that, the bishops from over there, they like flee and they flee to Rome and they were like they were about to like kind of fix all their problems and like the emperor over there was like any of y'all who don't come back and join my side.
Speaker 1:Any of y'all who, um don't come back and and join my side, I'll kill you so you can stay, or you can come back and do it my way, yeah, and so they stayed and so like. So then he's like, okay, I'm gonna appoint my own bishops. And so then, because he's in charge over there, and so like everything just kind of continued to separate. But there's like all this political like intrigue in the background stuff going on and then those kinds of but. But all of those Greek thinkers that came over like triggered the Renaissance period and how they thought about stuff, and then that trickled forward, you know, for the next few hundred years until Martin Luther, and it was really interesting to see how it all like kind of linked together, yeah, but anyway. So for them the big divide was who's in charge, right, and so for.
Speaker 1:And a lot of Orthodox people like to argue that the Pope is not in charge, kind of thing. But what's funny is if you go and you read the documents from the councils where all the bishops get together for like the first thousand years, there's many instances of them citing the superiority of the Pope and like we should listen to him and here, here he did a good thing, kind of thing. So it's kind of funny. So they're just kind of backing out on this thing that they've already been agreeing to.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's even something like in here I have one of these dog-eared. It's kind of interesting, he says, because he's talking about the Pope right here. He says when then all men protested against the novelty and they're talking about like a heresy that they're trying to work out in the church right. When, then, all men protested against the novelty and the priesthood everywhere, each in his zeal prompted him, opposed it. Pope Stephen of blessed memory, prelate of the apostolic see. See is a funny word, for like chair I don't know why it's like.
Speaker 1:This is my throne For anyway, prelate of the apostolic see, in conjunction, indeed, with his colleagues, but yet himself, the foremost, withstood it. Thinking it right, I doubt not that, as he exceeded all others in the authority of his place, so that he should also in the devotion of his faith, so like even in 434, he's saying like the Pope like yeah he's equal, but he's like the first of equals, right?
Speaker 1:So, anyway, so that's the kind of big divide. Is the Latin Rite, the Catholic Church. We understand that there's a tiebreaker and it's the Pope, right, he's the guy like Peter, is just an apostle like the rest of them, but he's a little bit special.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's like listen to him. All the other ones listen to him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so that's the Pope. But the Orthodox churches because the ones that went back and they started appointing their own bishops and stuff they're like no, we're in charge of ourselves. And so there has been a lot more development of theology since that schism in 1100 on the Latin side and not a whole lot of development of theology on the Orthodox side because, they can't get together and sort things out. They just argue or they excommunicate each other. So it's like I can.
Speaker 2:They don't have a referee.
Speaker 1:Basically. So if I was Greek Catholic or sorry Greek Orthodox, I could go to a Ukrainian Orthodox church for Mass, or I can go to a Russian one for Mass, but it's because neither one of them have excommunicated the Greek church. But if I was Ukrainian Orthodox, I can't go to the Russian Orthodox church because they've excommunicated usreek church. But if I was ukrainian orthodox, I can't go to the russian orthodox church because they've excommunicated us. And if I was russian orthodox, I can't go there, but we can both go to the greek one, and so it's like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like you said, there's no referee, there's nobody to like hey y'all settle down, let's work it out yeah, there's no interference. Yeah, that's interesting yeah I chuckle because this is in 434 yeah he wrote this in 434 and it's like so prevalent today. What he's talking about is so prevalent today.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's crazy man yeah, and, and this guy, like truth be told, I think this guy the the area he was in Lorenz, there was a way of thinking and I forget what it was because I haven't finished the whole book, but there's a way of thinking that is, I think it ended up being classified heretical, and so it's kind of funny because, like, apparently, when you read people who like really study him, they're like was he a heretic too, Was he writing all these wonderful things?
Speaker 2:but he was a heretic too.
Speaker 1:But that's kind of his whole thing is the only way you know is because the Church persists and the things that are true are always gonna be there in one way shape or form. And can our theology grow? Can it adapt over time Absolutely, but only if it is holding true to the original theology. You can't just make up something new and say this is the way it is. And that thing always struck me like with Martin Luther, where he's like wait a minute, no, no, no, no, you don't need the church. Well, this guy like what? Almost no. 1,100 years before Martin Luther was like yeah, if you don't have the church, you don't have anything.
Speaker 2:That's, I mean, what I'm getting out of. That is like to find the answer. You go to the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the church is everything Like it's everything is through the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so listen to this one. The title of this chapter is Heretics Appeal to Scripture that they May More Easily Succeed in Deceiving, he says here. Possibly someone may ask do heretics also appeal to scripture? They do indeed, and with a vengeance, for you may see them scamper through every single book of Holy Scripture, through the books of Moses, the books of Kings, the Psalms, the Epistles, the Gospels, the Prophets, whether among their own people or among strangers, in private or in public, in speaking or in writing, at convivial meetings, whatever that is, or in the streets. Hardly ever do they bring forward, and he says and the rest of those pests, and you will see an infinite heap of instances. Hardly a single page which does not bristle with plausible quotations from the New Testament or the Old.
Speaker 2:That's I mean. Was not Jesus tempted by the devil?
Speaker 1:with the devil quoted.
Speaker 2:Yeah, scripture adam that's when you were reading that, I was like that's exactly what the devil did yeah he took scripture and to go back to what we were talking about in the in the podcast, try to use his own ink. And jesus was like no, that's not god's ink that's your ink.
Speaker 2:And that's not right. So, yeah, that's exactly what. And again, it happens every day now because and a lot of this you know, when you're thinking about this, I'm thinking about the Joel Osteen's of the world and oh man, the guy, that man, he's a big one. There's several big ones, and I can't remember all their names right now, but those Benny Hinn's, another one.
Speaker 2:All those guys are taking Scripture and these people that come to their church and fill their stands and fill their pockets with money. They're hearing Scripture. Yeah, but it's just you know, Joel Osteen won't talk about anything bad. Joel olstein won't talk about anything bad like he don't talk about anything bad. You can't have the bible in scripture without having bad bad comes with it, and that's what this, this, this guy's saying, this vicente guy, or however you say his name vincent, yeah I'm looking across and I forgot my glasses.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:But Vincent, he's got a glorious beard, by the way, it is. It's pretty nice, it's envious. But that's what he's saying is like these guys are coming up here and they're spitting all this stuff out here and people are following them. You know the Aryans, or not the Aryans?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Those guys in the Donovans or whatever. They're all listening to what these guys are speaking and they're like oh, I like that, I'm going to go with that guy. Oh, I like that guy, I'm going to go with that guy. Well, it's the same with the nominations. Now you know you've got Baptist, but you also have Southern and you have Northern.
Speaker 1:Baptist. Is it Northern or is it just non-Southern? I think it's just Baptist, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Baptist, because I was like I've never heard Northern Baptist, but I think it's Baptist and then Southern Baptist. I think there's Reformed Baptist.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There's Reformed Baptist, and then you have Assembly of God and Pentecostal, which are kind of similar but they're different.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you have Presbyterian and Methodist and Mormon and I mean you just have, you know, lutheran. You go on and on and on because it's like oh, I like that part.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I heard somebody saying it was like he grew up thinking that. He grew up thinking that it may have been the guy who was talking about this guy too, and that video I was watching about this guy too. In that video I was watching, but he felt like no, no, no, it was somebody else. I just remember who it was. I don't remember the guy's name, but I do remember someone else. He was saying he always thought that Christianity was supposed to be like safety glass that just got hit real hard with a hammer and it just like spider web shatters out, but it doesn't break.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And it's just supposed to be all these different things because, nobody can agree on anything. Everybody has their own interpretation, and this is just the way it's supposed to be yeah and this is how we all get to heaven together that's wild to think like that, you know, yeah and and he, he again, he ultimately converted but, because he was like it never sat right with me that nobody seemed to agree on anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah like it's. It's again. Where's the referee? You? Know like you could just go and do whatever you want and and preach whatever you want, however, you feel this is what I think this says. So I'm just gonna go start a church that says this is what I think it says. Yep, that's, that's not right. Yeah, and I don't think any. I well, I think there are a lot of very good intentioned people out there, of course.
Speaker 1:I talk about it all and I don't think any—well, I think there are a lot of very good-intentioned people out there.
Speaker 2:Of course I talk about it all the time. I don't think there's anybody in First Baptist Church Arlington that ever taught me anything, at least the leaders in the church. I know there were some church members that we didn't always get along with, but the leaders in the church, they never had any ill will towards me or they were trying to lead me in any way that they didn't believe was the truth. Yeah, and again, I wouldn't be where I am right now without First Baptist Church Arlington. But I just know that there's something more than that and it's because if that denomination says this and this denomination says this and that, well, who's right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's that shattered, safety glass. Right, yeah, that safety glass that shattered.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and his little icon. He's holding a scroll and it says Let ye, yet ye, hold fast to that which has been believed everywhere, always and by all right, like that's his, that antiquity of this fit of.
Speaker 2:The belief has to be the root of anything yeah right um I think about whenever that you, you talk about that, that, that spider web, you know that safety glass, that's it's a good image. It is. It's. It's a very good image because when you look at it, all you see is chaos. You know, because if you think of a safety glass being shattered, when you look at it, you're like man, something bad happened. But when you, when you're supposed to look at christianity, you're not supposed to look at, something bad happen. Don't get me wrong. Something bad happened because jesus but you know what I mean you're not supposed to be like, oh, that's bad yeah that's chaos you don't look at, but that's how it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, if you're, if you're an outsider and you come over here and see all the craziness of what america has and this is no dog on america, because that's what makes america great is you can believe whatever you want to believe. That's what god says too.
Speaker 1:You can believe whatever you want to believe, but it's like man what in the world are y'all doing over here yeah, um that one of the things that he and this is what I think happens a lot of times is he's talking about these different um heresies is you have right? Because he's talking about how to, why do? Why are imminent men permitted?
Speaker 2:by God to do this stuff Permitted, you know.
Speaker 1:And he's saying so. I think what happens is somebody is just wrestling with something, kind of the way you're saying. It's hard for me to comprehend that like the divine part of Jesus. I can get the human part. Well, some of these are specifically about those kinds of heresies.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, well, God would, or Jesus was just a man, right, or the Holy Spirit moved into him at a certain point in time and that's when he started doing holy stuff. I don't know like whatever right, All these different thoughts and probably what happened is this guy, who loves God, can't figure it out. He can't exist in that tension between the two points that he can't comprehend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so in his mind he goes I have to make this make sense. And he shifts one way and he's like all right, my brain can accept that, I'm gonna run with it. And there's thousands of people in the world who go oh my goodness, that makes sense now too, thank you. And then they follow right. But this guy of St Vincent's going like nay, nay, that's not what you're supposed to do and it's not to say that right, because we've talked about, we have an intellect we're supposed to be able to figure out. God wouldn't be there and be like just accept it. Right, he wants you to try to understand.
Speaker 1:Him and it should make sense as much as possible to you, right? So I think that when this Martin Luther right, he's like I can't ever merit, I can't earn my way to heaven, I can't any of this stuff. Like the church is telling me that like I have to keep working on myself my whole life, I can't like I'll never get there. And then all of a sudden he goes. But wait, I don't have to, I just have to have faith alone. That's it.
Speaker 1:Well, faith alone is never in the Bible, except for in James when he says works without faith is dead or something like that, and so in his brain something clicked and it made sense to him and he felt better about it. And then, as he shared that with people, it made sense to other people and they all want to follow.
Speaker 2:But we can't.
Speaker 1:We got to be careful, I guess, is the trick. Yeah, you have to be very careful, you know, but we can't we gotta be careful, I guess?
Speaker 2:is the trick? Yeah, you, you have to be very careful and play to win, not to not lose.
Speaker 1:Throwback.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's just what. When you were talking about that, that's what was in my mind is like don't take the easy way out and plan to not lose is the easy way out. You got to play to win so it's like what is?
Speaker 1:how are you supposed to navigate that in in, because we've talked about this before too. Like there are people who are like uh, who are born into a faith and that's just the only thing.
Speaker 2:that's Because that's all they know.
Speaker 1:Right, but what happens when you start like Neo and the Matrix? You?
Speaker 2:start realizing that there's something else there, like what is it Like? You start noticing the differences and the things that don't sit right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like you start going, is that glass supposed to be like that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. You know what this is interesting? Because this is like we were talking about reasoning the other day. How do we come to know stuff? Because any kind of line of logic that we follow can give us the wrong answer. The logic can be sound, but it can give us the wrong answer. Right, Like the whole. A equals B. If A equals B and B equals C, then A equals C.
Speaker 2:Well, okay, B equals C, then A equals C.
Speaker 1:Well, okay, yeah, but you can get there and still get the wrong answer. Oh yeah, right, so if Chris is a man and Chris is a man's name, then all men's name is Chris or something like that, right. Like you can get there and that's maybe sorry philosophy majors out there who are just going.
Speaker 2:No, you ruined it.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, you can get to the wrong answer with good logic, kind of thing. And so we often want and this is maybe the fault or the danger of the heresy, right is, we very often want that one piece of evidence that's going to tell us what's right, to tell us what's right where. Instead we should be picking up all the pieces of evidence around us and trying to understand, you know, what is what is most probably yeah, the truth because, again, you can't.
Speaker 2:You can't live your life based on proof alone, because you, you can't prove, I can't prove that this building is not going to crumble right now.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I can't prove that, but I can take the evidence in the fact that it's built sturdy, it's structurally sound and it's going to hold us.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's proof, but's? I mean, it's not, it's not proof.
Speaker 2:Sorry, it's evidence, but it's not proof yeah that it's gonna be so when you say that, yeah, we have to take the evidence around us to, because if you, I mean if you try to base and there's a guy that I listened to, he's man, he's, he's so awesome and I can never remember his name, but he says this a lot, he goes to a lot I think I might have mentioned him on the last podcast or whatever, maybe sometime before but he goes to colleges, campuses, and all of them, all of them want proof, proof, proof, proof, proof. And he's so much all the time says do you live your life based on so proof? And they're like, yeah, and he was like you're lying because you can't, because you go to sleep at night, you can't prove that your dorm, your, your roommate, is not going to stab you in the back when you're asleep. Yep, but the evidence that y'all have formed in the relationship leads you to believe that your roommate is not going to stab you in the back.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, you relate that to the to and again again. I think we talked about it before, maybe not on the podcast, but I know you and I have talked about it. We'll believe so quickly that Napoleon was.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Was real, him, and like Julius Caesar and all these great historical figures, there's not a person on the planet that was an eyewitness to whatever to them being born or them being alive. There's nobody on this planet that lived during their time, yeah, but we're so quick to believe that those guys were real and were true, based on eyewitness testimony through written uh documents and in in books throughout the years that were like hundreds of years, hundreds of years but yet we're so quick to say, well, god didn't exist, but God is based on eyewitness testimony.
Speaker 1:Jesus wasn't real yeah.
Speaker 2:But there's eyewitnesses.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Probably more eyewitnesses to Jesus than to Napoleon, and Caesar and all of them. So why?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's so interesting. And because, yeah, because you cannot live your life that way, like it doesn't make any sense to live any part of your life that way. So, even like I heard some guy talking, somebody was asking him like how do I know that God exists right? And he's like there's no single piece of evidence. But a good metaphor for what he said would be if I asked you how do you know your wife loves you? Yeah, well, you can't say well, here's the one thing that I know my wife loves me because of this. No, it's all of the evidence together added up where you go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know my wife loves me, yeah, right. So you look around, yeah, I know God exists, yeah, right. And then, yeah, not just that there's a deity, that there's some kind of God out there, because you look at the evidence, yeah, I believe that Jesus was a real guy, that Jesus was. Oh, father Stephen's calling me. Sorry, I'll have to. Oh, I actually wonder if I can answer him. Hold on a second. Let's try this. I'm going to put him on speaker Nice Padre and put him on speaker Nice Padre. I'm recording a podcast episode with Chris and now you're on it. Oh, okay, I better let you go. Yeah, I'll call you when I'm done. Okay, all right, love you, love you, Bye. His ears were burning, man. His ears were burning.
Speaker 2:But it's. It's the evidence that your wife has provided you to believe that she loves you. Yeah, and it's evidence that you provide her that she believes that you, that you love her yeah but's. There's no way to 100% prove that my wife loves me or that she believes that I love her.
Speaker 1:And I it.
Speaker 2:I was watching again another reel and they were given all these like astronomical, like it's. It's like this hard for eight miracles to even happen and it's this hard, even harder, for 40 miracles to even happen and even harder than but it's been scientifically proven that Jesus performed over 300. Yeah, it's been scientifically proven. Yeah, but people can't believe that Even though it's been scientifically proven. Yeah, people still don't believe it. Yep, yeah, it's so like it's wild man. It's wild man. But don't believe that napoleon was napoleon and caesar was caesar and george washington was george washington and abraham lincoln was Abraham, you know, but it's solely based on eyewitness testimony of those people being alive that the people today believe those people were alive, on eyewitness testimony.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so so we're all, and so often we want that red pill.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's going to give us the truth, and that's it. And then you know, everything changes. But, I think the challenge for all of us right, and I did this too, because I was raised Catholic and then I completely walked away from the church. I walked away from God, I claimed to be atheist, and all that kind of stuff right, but at some point in time God, in his mercy, slapped me in the back of the head and shook me real hard and brought me back.
Speaker 1:And then my question was then what is the truth? Because Jesus claims to be the truth, but looking around at the safety glass, it's a mess, and so I think that the challenge for all of us is to is to how do we find the evidence that gives us what is most probably the truth? Yeah, you know and and then, um, are we doing the best we can with that? Yeah, what are we doing with that evidence? Yeah, you know, yeah, I think there's, there's no other way to look at it.
Speaker 2:There's no other way to. Are we doing the best?
Speaker 1:we can with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are we doing with that evidence? Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, I think there's no other way to look at it. There's no other way to decide whether we believe it or not. What evidence is there and what do we do with that evidence?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and for me the thing that I did is I was reading these old guys. Yeah, Because I was like, well, I wonder what exists. I'm like, oh, guys who actually knew the apostles wrote stuff down. I wonder what they wrote. And that's pretty strong evidence to me.
Speaker 2:Eyewitness testimony yeah Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's like when was? It's like your grandfather was probably born in the early 1900s 1908.
Speaker 2:No 1903.
Speaker 1:Okay, so that's your grandfather.
Speaker 2:That's my grandfather. That's my dad's dad.
Speaker 1:Okay. So not only do we have guys who knew the apostles and wrote of them, but then like, and you know a lot about your dad's dad, Mm-hmm. Okay. But then like, and you know a lot about your dad's dad, mm-hmm. Okay, we have things written by the disciples of the apostles. Right, like Ignatius was a disciple of Peter, we have things written by his disciples.
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So you think he probably knows Peter pretty well, yeah, right. And so, like a lot of times, people go oh, something was written in the 300s or 400s. Those guys were not that far away.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like they knew the guy that it's like their grand, their great grandfather or their grandfather of the faith was one of the apostles.
Speaker 2:A lot of times. My great grandfather was born in the 1800s.
Speaker 1:Did you ever meet him?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Never met him but, I, know of him because my papa told me about him. Yeah, yeah yeah, and my dad told me what he knows about him, but I believe, based on their eyewitness testimony, that my, my great-grandfather was alive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know and you know, it's what. The last thing I think is really kind of interesting about this kind of stuff, because I hear a lot of people like um, my um, my father-in-law, I'd love to have my father-in-law like on this. I don't think he'd, ever it would. Um, out of respect, I don't think he would but their church of Christ. So they're very Bible literal and um, they believe that the church of Christ is the, the, it's the true church and it's the true church. Because if their little congregation doesn't work out super paraphrasing, not trying to be offensive but if it doesn't work out, it's because they weren't being true to the church. If their church is true, then it persists, kind of thing, right. So if you're trying to teach things that are untrue, the church doesn't last. So again, super nutshell. So again, super nutshell.
Speaker 1:But I'm saying all that because this St Vincent's writing about all these heresies in here and he writes about the divinity of Jesus, the Trinity, all of these kinds of things like this, right, and there's not once that he writes about. So it's very clear that if somebody had a novel idea, if somebody had a new idea, if somebody tried to introduce something new into Christianity, people were throwing a fit Like they were not standing for it, right, and even if it was real, real popular like some of these guys, like the Arian heresy was real popular and I think he says that there may have been a time where most of the people of the church believed the heresy, but when all the bishops got together and they argued it out, the Holy Spirit won and it clarified the issue. Right, so God is, or Jesus is truly God, fully man kind of thing. Okay, so not once. Are they writing?
Speaker 1:Is he writing about, if there are, if it's appropriate that there are priests, bishops and a pope, and my father-in-law's church like he'll all day long like there are no priests in the Bible, well, for the Christians, right, like never talks about that there's a pope, never talks about that there are priests and that there's all this Eucharist and stuff like that right.
Speaker 1:Like all that stuff is made up, well, they would have been writing and arguing about it really early in the church, because in this he says he talks about the Pope, he talks about your bishop, he talks about the priests, right, and so that was kind of evidence. To me too, it's like, well, maybe somebody is people out there believe stuff that they've heard and they don't know the historical nature of it, right, and that's kind of goes back to believe what? What does he say? What's been believed everywhere, always and by all kind of thing? I don't know. I just thought it was really, really interesting stuff, yeah it is, man, it is.
Speaker 2:And again, like, where do I go to find what is right? Well, according to that guy, it's the church.
Speaker 1:Yeah. You know, I'll have to let you borrow it when I'm done bookmarking it up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's Jesus. You know, that's I mean obviously he's the answer, but there's so many people out there that have a different answer to that question or like a not maybe a different answer jesus always answer but like a different version of what jesus says yeah, so man, what did we say we're going to talk about next time?
Speaker 1:I don't remember.
Speaker 2:I don't either what did we say we're gonna talk about next time? I don't remember. I don't either. What did we say, give me a second, I'll come to it. And I don't remember I don't remember either we got off on this man and I forgot there you go man well, we going to talk about something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have a feeling you and I will pop into the office at work and be like, hey, this thing that I saw, yeah, and then we'll be like hold on time out, let's just go talk about it, all right, man, because that's usually how it happens. But there was something that Like oh, that's good, that's good, it'll come to us. Yeah Well, thanks for hanging out with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I appreciate it. This is always fun. It's always a good time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That was cool that Father Stevens jumped in.
Speaker 1:Yeah, can't wait for him to hear it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right, cool man. Well, see you, see you when I see you.
