My Friend the Friar
A podcast where we learn about our faith and share what it takes to live a Catholic Christian life through conversations and contemplations with my friend the friar, a Discalced Carmelite Priest.
My Friend the Friar
The Priesthood of the Laity
In this episode, we dive deep into the critical role of the laity within the Church, inspired by Lumen Gentium. We discuss how both men and women are essential to the Church's mission, working alongside clergy and religious members. Our discussion touches on the importance of collaboration, mutual respect for different vocations, and the dangers of clericalism. With the backdrop of today’s internet-driven world of strong opinions, we emphasize the need for diverse perspectives and a mature approach to faith and life.
This episode also brings to light the powerful mission of laypeople to sanctify the world through their everyday lives. We explore the concept of duty and obligation, and how the roles of priest, prophet, and king can manifest in lay vocations. Father Stephen underscores the laity's duty to live out gospel values authentically, influencing family life, civil society, and professional environments. We wrap up with a reflection on the universal call to holiness and the shared privilege of faith among all believers, making this a deeply inspiring and thought-provoking discussion.
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Speaker 2:Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me. I'm my friend, the Friar Father Stephen Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelite Priest. Good evening, father. You're not allowed to laugh anymore. Good evening. I was smiling very widely, there is no laughter in church. Did you ever get in trouble for laughing when you were a kid, or getting mom pinchy or something?
Speaker 1:So yeah, you're there fighting or teasing your siblings, and then all of a sudden comes the pinch.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:What have you been up to today? Today, it's been that long of a day you already don't remember.
Speaker 1:It's been a long day Been doing a lot of preparing documents, stuff Because I'm leaving for Boston tomorrow. Well, actually I'm leaving early Wednesday morning for Boston for the Congress, so trying to get a lot of stuff done, a lot of paperwork done, a lot of bank work done. Thank God I had a 10 o'clock cancellation that gave me time to do more stuff. I was over at the parish this morning trying to get stuff done there and then I had to go down to the parish in the afternoon at two. Go send my life away.
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, I didn't know you got elected to go to congress or congress. Is it congress or senate? Which one did you get elected to?
Speaker 1:congress. So that's the secular order they order Each territory will have what they call a Congress, which is a calling forth of all the communities in the territory, and they usually invite members of the other provinces for the secular order attend. And since I am still, más o menos, the provincial delegate to the secular order in our territory, this was something that I put on my calendar months ago.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so now trying to sync calendars and da-da-da-da, and so yeah, today's been long.
Speaker 2:So, when you get there, we're going to adjourn after the first 15 minutes. Okay, we're going to need to elect bishops intelligently Intelligently, people that we know To be able to represent us. There you go. Three years later, we're going to come out with three, or with lots of documents.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Something like that I wish. Now we already got an agenda starting from when I get there. I'm going to get in there Wednesday afternoon. We already have an agenda for our meeting, for our council, wednesday evening, then Thursday morning, then Thursday afternoon is when the rest of the Congress members meet. All the council members meet Thursday morning from the three provinces and the three different councils of the three different provinces and have what they call an IPC Interprovincial Council meeting. So we've got so much to do. They, they want. They offered us an excursion trip or something else on on either Friday or something. I was like, no like. By then my introverted self will be way over overtaxed, so stay in my room and read.
Speaker 2:Man, that's a. I'm tired just thinking about it. I'm not even going and I'm tired from it. Oh, my word, it's going to be something else. Would you rather not to not to try and paint that in a negative light, but would you rather be in a situation such as the Congress, where you have to be social and extra well, you know, not necessarily extroverted you got to interact with people, right? Or would you rather be? Would you rather teach like a middle school CCD class?
Speaker 1:Oh, I would rather go to the Congress.
Speaker 2:Children, I love them.
Speaker 1:I'm glad you do.
Speaker 2:Somebody's got to. No, that's why betty's my superhero, because I don't know how she does it all day. She's got a lot of kids from venezuela this year, with everything going on so yeah yeah yeah, no, wow, that must be really tough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was watching this video and I don't know how true this is, but I thought it was interesting and so I'm going to try and put you on the spot, because I tried to put myself on the spot. I failed miserably when it came to this. But this guy was talking about kind of you seeing yeah, I know you like watching movies. So you see in the movies like military movies where the guy runs up and he's like drop and give me 20 or whatever, right, and he's got to do the 20 pushups. So what the guy was saying in the video was that's supposed to be an on-the-spot test of your fitness, right? Are you fit to be doing this thing? Are you fit to continue? Right, because I guess it could be a punishment at some time too. Are you fit to continue? Right, because I guess it could be a punishment at some time too.
Speaker 1:But it's like if you can't even do the 20 push-ups, why the heck?
Speaker 2:are you here, dude? Right? So what the video was getting at is in whatever this thing is that you are invested in, could you, in a way that's relevant to that thing, can you drop and give 20? So I was thinking about us and I was like, okay, well, if somebody asked me how to cook meat, like something about cooking meat, because I love cooking the meat, so can you give me 20 things about cooking good meat? And I was like, oh, I could think of a couple. But then I said, well, could you think of 20 things about like the Catholic faith, or your faith, or Christianity, or having a good relationship with God or something? And for some reason it was so much harder. And so now I'm just wondering, like you're kind of a professional, you know you've been doing this for a little bit could you do like three?
Speaker 1:thank you for not calling me old, but okay uh whatever you're younger than I am, so could you.
Speaker 2:It's age is a mindset right so I think, in. I think in that case you are younger than I am. But could you do like three spiritual push-ups, right, Like if somebody said like give me three things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, probably. It depends on what the question is. It depends what they're asking and one, how catechized they are. I mean, do I have to start at zero or do I have to start, you know, like, are we talking first grade, eighth grade, are we talking university level, post-grad? I mean, what are we talking? It depends on um, on where they're at and what the question is. Right, yeah, yeah, I think I'm enough, if at least not proficient enough and able to verbalize it. I probably have enough resources that I can send them to. Yeah, so, yeah, I think so.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been giving conferences for decades now. So See, maybe that's why I struggled, because I couldn't. I couldn't frame the question in my own mind Right, like give me 20 pushups of of what, like who, yeah, or yeah, or yeah, cooking like meat. That's very specific. But well, I think so because I think?
Speaker 1:I think maybe yes. For example, like, okay, are you talking about smoking? Are you talking about roasting? Are you talking about baking? Are you talking about beef? Are you talking about lamb? Are you talking about pork? You're talking about chicken, what are you talking about? And so, yeah, and so all those, all those, what ifs?
Speaker 2:yeah, well, and all those what ifs, I guess, transferred to spiritual push-ups, right, like, like you're saying, who am I talking to? Am I talking to a kid? Am I talking to somebody who's married, somebody's single, somebody's 90, right, who knows? Bertha just showed up.
Speaker 1:Hi, bertha she heard us talking about food yeah, basically, um, okay enough with our rambling.
Speaker 2:Um, I wonder if that this can segue anyway into the laity, which is the chapter we're discussing you try no I don't think so, you don't think so, you don't think that, you don't think so, you don't think that the laity has to be able to engage with their faith.
Speaker 1:Well, they should be able to give some sort of description as to what their vocation is. I mean, you would think right?
Speaker 2:What is?
Speaker 1:their vocation, and that's why we're doing this to give them the ability to do those 20, right. Give them some sort of arsenal.
Speaker 2:Yeah, give them some spiritual muscle. There you go.
Speaker 1:Amen Amen.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, so we left off with how important, how integral. Integral, that's a hard word. Let me just say a chapter. We finished talking about the primacy of Christ. There you go In the church and so now the next component is the laity.
Speaker 1:Right is the laity Right. So we've gone from chapter 2, which was an emphasis on the primacy of Christ, and we skipped chapter 3, which we said was on the hierarchical structure and the episcopate right. Not that that's not important it is. But for the context of where we want to go towards chapter 8, on Our Lady and the Church, I wanted to just skip over that and jump into chapter 4, the Laity, which in Lumen Gentium, are numbers 30 through 38. So let me read number 30, which is the opening paragraph for the chapter for On the Laity. So number 30 says Having set forth the functions of the hierarchy, which was chapter 3, the sacred council gladly turns its attention to the state of those faithful called the laity.
Speaker 1:Everything that has been said above concerning the people of God chapter 2, is intended for the laity, religious and clergy alike, which is chapter 4, and then the chapter on religious and the chapter on clergy. But there are certain things which pertain in a special way to the laity, both men and women, by reason of their condition and mission. Due to the special circumstances of our time, the foundations of this doctrine must be more thoroughly examined, for their pastors know how much the laity contribute to the welfare of the entire church. They also know that they were not ordained by Christ to take upon themselves alone the entire salvific mission of the church toward the world. In other words, and let me pause right there, in other words, this is sort of a way in which the church, very subtly, is addressing the idea of clericalism, that the priest has to do everything, or the priest wants to do everything, or the priest wants to be in charge of everything. And so here we're having the, the council fathers say that they know that they were not ordained by christ to do it all by themselves, and so that they need the participation, then, of the laity.
Speaker 1:So then, continuing on, hey Bertha, on the contrary, they understand that it is their noble duty, the pastors, the bishops and the clergy, to shepherd the faithful and to recognize their ministries and charisms, so so that all, according to their proper rules, may cooperate in this common undertaking with one mind, for we must all practice the truth in love and so grow up in all things in him who is head Christ, all things in him who is head Christ, for from him the whole body being closely joined and knit together through every joint of the system, according to the functioning and due measure of each single part derives its increase to the building up of itself. In love, Okay, in love, okay. So just a little unpacking of this, not too much but just unpacking of this here.
Speaker 1:the council fathers are sort of recalling Paul's image of the body, like they're different members, right, and each member of the body has its thing to do.
Speaker 1:And so the hand does one thing, the foot does another thing, and so here this is a way in which the council fathers are trying to remind the clergy, the religious and the laity that we each overstep our role. Right, because sometimes you get some personalities that get over, they're overly charged or overly controlling. Right, and so they want to take on the role of Jesus. Right, they want to be the Savior, the Messiah, complex. Right, and so what happens is that becomes a countersign of actually what we're supposed to be doing. Right, to work together.
Speaker 1:So part of the whole idea of the dignity of the human person, the dignity of everyone that is baptized, is, again, we all receive a mission through the grace of baptism, and so what is our mission? So we have to be careful that we recognize and respect the role that each one of us is called to, and there is obviously some interdependence and there is some cooperation or collaboration, but each one has its own, each vocation has its own role in the body, and so sometimes there's confusion in the body because people within a particular role are trying to or are bleeding over into other roles that are not theirs.
Speaker 2:Okay, does that make sense? Yeah, no, it does, and it makes me think a lot kind of I wouldn't, I wouldn't call us influential or anything right it's thinking about people on the internet. Yeah, there's a lot of people who have very, very strong opinions and oh yeah, and use a platform for that yeah, and and we really want to just encourage people to think and consider and educate themselves right and one another.
Speaker 2:Excuse me, so it just it was kind of making me think about that, but it also made me wonder about that the health of the church when people so so like this is saying the laity has a role, the priest has a role, right, the priest even if you're thinking kind of Old Testament, like the priest is the person who takes care of the temple and he's the one who administers the rituals and he's the one who protects the scripture and all that kind of thing. But all the people outside of the temple are the ones who are doing way more acting, but it's disordered when they're listening to each other more than they're listening to the priest, right, or or whatever right? And so I'm just kind of thinking about that kind of thing too. Where, where do people get their information from?
Speaker 1:yeah, and, like I said, like we talked about the previous episode, is that do I have the maturity spiritual, emotional, psychological do I have the maturity necessary to be able to consider an opposing view right? Somebody disagrees with me and what's very disappointing is, a lot of times what happens is there are certain religious people. By religious I mean not religious like consecrated religious, I just mean people that are pious right or devoted to their faith.
Speaker 1:What happens is they only seek out those that agree with them. They have their bubble right, and so part of being in the bubble is that only we're right and everybody else is wrong, right, and so then you're not even willing to consider the fact that you might be skewed right.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so, which is fine. So like, for example, if when you draw a graph and you start two lines, and you start, let's say, there's a, there's a three degree difference between one line and the other line. Well, when you're only, when you only draw one inch or three inches of those two lines, it's not very much, but if you keep moving and drawing those lines out to 10, 15, 15 feet, there's a huge difference.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's what happens, for example, like the episode the other day when I brought up the port clears in Spain that have decided that they don't belong to the church anymore and da-da-da-da-da-da.
Speaker 2:I go like wow.
Speaker 1:So way back there, somewhere they began to be skewed and this is where they find themselves. They find themselves in a schism from the church and they believe themselves to be the true church, the true believers, the only ones, and I go like. That is so sad, it's very sad, but it's something that can happen to anybody and that's why it's very important to be objective, to seek to educate yourself, even if it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think this also speaks to something we were speaking previously about too, and how it's. It can't be like a personal faith or religion whatever, like you have to be in relationship with one another, because if, as a matter of fact, I would, I might argue that the more relationships you have, the less opportunity you have for that sounding for that echo chamber to develop around you. Yes, and you might be more prone to realize that you're a few degrees off before you're 15 feet down the road, right, right. Yeah, it also makes me think, and maybe we'll get to it or maybe we'll just need to talk about it in another episode but the importance of obedience.
Speaker 1:I don't think our culture understands obedience well, no, they don't, they don't value it, and it comes from again. It comes from a very I don't want to say an honest place and I don't want to say we come by it honestly. Again, it comes from a very I don't want to say an honest place and I don't want to say we come by it honestly. But in the United States, because of the culture of independence, right, and because it is a culture of sort of democracy, I think we have a really difficult time understanding the value of obedience, right, because it's for everybody else but me, right, yeah, and so it is hard, and so I think part of it too is sometimes, when I see something on YouTube and sometimes it's of a religious nature sometimes I go like oh, my word Really sometimes I go like, oh, my word, right, really it might be somebody that is very pious, somebody that is appealing to a particular brand of Christianity or Catholicism, right.
Speaker 1:And so it just makes me very sad to go like, wow, is that really Wow, really. So anyway, this is part of what this is sort of like the caution that is seen in number 30 years. The church is trying to emphasize that there are proper roles, and so we need to know what our role is.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And again the fact that I am not the pope, I am not the archbishop, I am not you know whatever. And so, okay, you're the one that has to stand before God and my only thing is okay, I have to listen to you and okay, so I will obey you, even if it's difficult or I don't understand it or I think it's crazy. Okay, so I have to trust in the grace of obedience, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think Padre Pio is a good example of some of the things he went through and he was obedient and he's like you're the boss. Yeah. You know, and it worked out because God has a plan in all this? Crazy. So anyway, I'll let you get back to it.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, thank you for that. Yeah, that's something that Humanity, humanity. So, um, here I'm going to take a line from as we get to the laity right and start digging into the chapter and laity. So what I'm going to do here is I'm going to take a line from chapter two on the people of god. That kind of, I believe, summarizes to a degree the essential point of that chapter, chapter two on the people of God, and that I'm taking this from number 10.
Speaker 1:Therefore, all the disciples of Christ, persevering in prayer and praising God, should present themselves as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God Everywhere on earth.
Speaker 1:They must bear witness to Christ and give an answer to those who seek an account of that hope of eternal life which is in them.
Speaker 1:Okay now, the reason I brought this out is because our faith is not just about going to church, going to Mass, receiving communion, receiving the sacraments that we celebrate is that I present myself to God, the Father, with the bread and the wine to be consecrated and to be offered, that I become a living sacrifice, a living vehicle for God's grace in the world.
Speaker 1:And a lot of people are missing that. They're getting stuck on the devotional, pious aspect and then not really asking themselves the hard question where am I in my conversion? Am I giving witness? Am I truly being a living sacrifice that is holy and pleasing to God? And that's very important, because sometimes we get stuck in the affect, we get stuck in the sentimentality of things and we can get stuck in the piety of things. Again, piety is a good thing, true piety is a good thing, it's a virtue. But sometimes what can happen is you get caught in the emotional thing, you get caught in the self-consolation, in the look at me, I'm being good kind of thing, and you forget the sacrifice aspect of it, that God is asking of me to practice heroic virtue in some situations that I find uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think in our culture too, we get caught up in the performative aspect of everything. Yes, Like the productive, did I produce this thing. Because, that's the only way I have value you know.
Speaker 2:So did I check the boxes? Did I pray my rosary today? Yes, Did I go to mass today? Yes, Did I go to confession once a year, or whatever? The minimum is right? Did I check all the boxes instead of, like you're saying, reflecting back on where I actually am? Because I think where you are. I mean, wouldn't you rather have a whole room full of guys that are really really bad at living out their faith but really really want to? Yes, Than a bunch of guys that do it perfectly but it's just dead?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's performance, right, performative, exactly. Yeah, no, I agree, I agree. I'd rather talk to somebody who's down in the dirt and rolled up their sleeves and covered in blood, sweat and tears Okay, we can talk right Instead of somebody that's worried about scrupulosity and performance and all this other stuff, which is a very difficult place to be. But they need to get past that and really look at you. Know what is the conversion that God is calling me to? Right, and can I allow myself to be convicted by the Holy Spirit, would you say?
Speaker 2:the best way to get to that is prayer?
Speaker 1:Oh, definitely, it's presenting yourself. And again, see, now we go through this Give me 20. So it depends what is prayer? If prayer is just rote, then eventually the Holy Spirit will break through. But to actually sit in silence and to just reflect on and think about Christ, his sacred humanity, what this means, the Christ event, and what it means to me and what he's invited me into, yeah, that's going to happen. The conversion will happen that way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we've got some great episodes on prayer and relationship for people to go check out if they haven't heard them.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, please do so anyway, getting back to this idea, then, trying to recap a little bit of the previous chapters as we talk about laity, so this whole idea of, through baptism, that we each one of us that is baptized shares in the different, what's known, what they call the Munera, the Munera of Christ priest, prophet and king. Right so the Munera comes from the Latin, which has to do with duty and obligation. Right from the Latin, which has to do with duty and obligation. Right so the duty, obligation, responsibility of Jesus as priest, prophet and king. And because we're baptized into Jesus Christ, we also share in those duties and obligations of priest, prophet and king, according, then, to our state in life, according to our vocation. So you have that, through baptism, in addition to the baptismal call or the baptismal duty of priest, prophet and king, each individual within community lives out this sharing in a different way, according to their state of life or vocation. The clergy are different because of ordination. The religious are different because of their public vows or promises to live by the evangelical councils of poverty, chastity and obedience. So, then, that which distinguishes the laity from the clergy and the consecrated religious is the very nature of the secular character of their life, as is explicated in Numbers 31 and 35 of the document and we'll talk about 31 in just a minute. The principal characteristic of the laity is they're living in the midst of the world that is in need of renewal, and that that very secularity of the laity, through the life, work and mission of the laity, is more and more brought into harmony with the teachings of Christ. Okay, we'll come back to that in just a minute. Let me read number 31.
Speaker 1:But the laity, by their vocation, seek the kingdom of God by engaging in temporal affairs and by ordering them according to the plan of God. They live in the world, that is, in each and in all of the secular professions and occupations. They live in the ordinary circumstances of family and social life from which the very web of their existence is woven. They are called there by God that, by exercising their proper function in the world and led by the Spirit of the Gospel, they may work for the sanctification of the world from within, as a leaven. In this way, they may make Christ known to others, especially by the testimony of a life resplendent in faith, hope and charity. Therefore, since they are tightly bound up in all types of temporal affairs. It is their special task to order and to throw light upon these affairs in such a way that they may come into being and then continually increase, according to Christ.
Speaker 1:Okay, so then, part of the mission, then, of the secular or the laity, the lay person, the Laos, the people of God, no-transcript, to be a living sacrifice where they find themselves, that they bring to their situation gospel values. It doesn't mean that you impose yourself on others. It means, by the way that you live your life, you are being an example and therefore you are preparing the society, the world, to receive the gospel when it is time, or when God decides it's time for them, or invites them into the gospel, right Into faith. And so I think this is very important, because sometimes what can happen is being the do society, society. A lot of people want to go out on mission, go out and preach, go convert the Baptist or the Buddhists or whatever, right, which, okay, fine, there's a place for that.
Speaker 1:But in your workplace, at the Target at the, at the Target, at the Walmart, at the Costco, at the Whole Foods? Wherever you find yourself, are you conducting yourself in a way that would manifest that you are a believer, a disciple? Do you respect the dignity of those people around you? Are you another Christ that is capable of being considerate and compassionate and understanding?
Speaker 2:I saw this thing this one time, and what you're saying makes me think of this, and I can't remember where I heard it or saw it. So I apologize, but could you be put on trial for being Christian without having ever said that you're Christian?
Speaker 1:There you are.
Speaker 2:So you never actually said it, but could you be put on trial and convicted of being Christian from just the way you live your life?
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, the way you interact with others, the way you live your life. Right, yeah, the way you interact with others. And so there's something to think about, because I think this is a much harder thing to do than to stand on a street corner and preach about the heretics, and that they need to learn how to pray all the mysteries of the rosary, I mean. And the rosary is wonderful and great, and the stations of the cross are wonderful and great, and they make sense to us who believe and use them with devotion, but sometimes what happens is the laity, or not just the laity, throughout the whole church, people get confused as to what their proper function and role is. So, as a and this is what I find very disturbing at times is sometimes, when I see clergy or religious or people who put on the robe of religious authority, instead of teaching, instead of catechizing, they are expounding their point of view, their political, religious preference, right, instead of catechizing, right? So okay, let me jump down to number 32. So okay, let me, let me jump down to number 32. If, therefore, in the church, everyone does not proceed by the same path and others, in other words, we all have different vocations. If, therefore, in the church. Everyone does not proceed by the same path.
Speaker 1:Nevertheless, all are called to sanctity. So here already we have something that's going to bring us into the next chapter the universal call of sanctity. Right, all are called to sanctity and have received an equal privilege of faith through the justice of God. And here is something that I want to share from this right All share a true equality with regard to the dignity and to the activity common to all the faithful anger, the condemnation, sometimes even the vileness of people in a religious role, condemning and judging and, you know, basically casting others into the deepest parts of hell. Right, and I go like, really Do you?
Speaker 2:really have to do this? Can't you just teach? Don't judge, don't condemn. People are smart enough to draw conclusions. Why can't you just teach?
Speaker 1:So you're not a fan of the fire and brimstone homilies. No, I mean, you have to proclaim the truth of that there is a hell and that there is the consequence of my choice. But I believe the more you treat people as adults, the more they're going to mature. You just lay it out for them. Okay, these are the consequences, this is the choice. Okay, and going back to the Old Testament, I set before you life and death you choose.
Speaker 1:I ask you to choose life, and if you want to choose death, okay, that's between you and God well and right.
Speaker 2:Jesus talks more about hell than anyone else, I think in the entire.
Speaker 1:Bible yeah.
Speaker 2:And I agree. I think if you are acting in a way that is deserving of people's trust, then as you speak the truth, as you speak the truth, then the Holy Spirit is going to be way more convicting than you could ever be anyway, even on your best day. Yes, yes. So just let—and that's kind of what we're talking about. Everybody has a role. Let—you're not Jesus, let Jesus be Jesus. Let God do the godly things, and you do your thing, you know.
Speaker 1:But it's also not an excuse to not act or not speak the truth either. No, I agree, I mean, but I think part of it is this I think the culture of anger that we have in the United States and probably in the world, is people tap into that. And again, if you're looking to get a larger following, right, especially if you're on social media and it's about you know how many followers do I have yeah, it's easy to get into the righteous anger thing and, you know, into that bubble of righteous anger and da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Yeah, there is a market for that and there is those people that that is what they're cultivating and that's who they're appealing to and that is who they do appeal to, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's okay, that's their thing, right, but that's not healthy. Yeah, it's not a healthy thing 100%.
Speaker 2:So you know, my wife's a teacher and I used to be a teacher and you get a bunch of teachers together and the easiest way to get them to start interacting is to complain somehow about the education system and go am I right? You know, and now everybody's. But it's not healthy because none of them are teachers, because of the things that they hate. And so instead, put your energy into the wonderful things that happen, because you're devoting yourself to helping these kids. Yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 1:And again, that's what. That's why catechesis is so important, that's why education is so important, that's why being objective is so important, that's why it's willing to look at difficult and hard questions is so important, because you know, as the Lord himself says in the Gospels, you know if you say hello only to those who say hello to you, or you love only those who love you, so you care. Anyway, sorry for the rant.
Speaker 2:No, I'm not sorry for the rant, you're just doing them push-ups today.
Speaker 1:Okay, so number 33 of Lumen Gentium, the lay apostolate is a participation in the salvific mission of the church itself and I have that underlined because that is very important by the lay person doing what they can at the job site, in the family, at home, at the Costco, at the Sam's, whatever, by trying to live a dignified life and being respectful and kind and considerate and polite to others. That that is already a participation in the salvific mission of the church and that's important. You make a difference by the way that you interact with others. You make a difference with your attitude and the way you consider others or don't consider others. Okay, so that's just the first sentence from number 33.
Speaker 1:So, through their baptism and confirmation, all are commissioned to that apostolate by the Lord himself. We are all missionaries. Moreover, by the sacraments, especially Holy Eucharist, the charity toward God and man, which is the soul of the apostolate, is communicated and nourished. Okay, let me go back to that. What is the soul of the apostolate? For anyone in the church? It is the charity towards God and man, love of God and love of neighbor. That is essential.
Speaker 1:Okay, now the laity are called in a special way to make the church present and operative in those places and circumstances where only through them can it become the salt of the earth. Thus, every layman, in virtue of the very gifts bestowed upon him, is at the same time a witness and a living instrument of the mission of the church. So, then, the special vocation of the laity lays in Christ's call to them to make the church present and fruitful in those places and circumstances where it is only through them that she, the church, can become the salt of the earth. It's not the job of the priest, it's not the job of the religious. We have our place within the community of faith, and it is our job to catechize, teach, help, guide, give example to the laity, so that the laity can go out into the world and fulfill their mission, their call.
Speaker 2:Yeah, something that's always been interesting to me about that is, the relationship between the laity and the clergy is where do you think our bishops come from? Where do you think our priests come from? Right from the lady exactly yeah, if we don't have a healthy, thriving catechized laity, then what do you think our future priests and bishops and all that?
Speaker 1:are just all vocations period.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So continuing on then. So the this is a quote from Ephesians they conduct themselves as children of the promise and thus, strong in faith and in hope, they make the most of the present and then, quoting Romans, and with patience await the glory that is to come. Let them not then hide in the depths of their hearts, but even in the program of their secular life. Let them express by a continual conversion and by wrestling against the world rulers of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness. That's from Lumen Gentium, number 35.
Speaker 1:So they're saying it's difficult, yes, it's difficult, you're wrestling with the world, against the world, to try to be this light, this salt, to live this faith, hope and love, to live this glory of God, which is love of God and love of neighbor. Yes, it is hard, yes, it is difficult, but the church offers you the sacraments as a way to strengthen yourself for this mission. So when you don't strengthen yourself, when you don't feed yourself, then this mission becomes very, very difficult and at times that's why some people get tired, that's why some people walk away, away. It's because they're not really taking care of themselves and the needs that they have to live this consecration, this mission, right. So I have a quote here from Jordan Allman, who is a religious, he's a Dominican, a religious spiritual writer.
Speaker 1:He's a religious. He's a Dominican, a religious spiritual writer. So a lay person in the church is a baptized Christian who is deputed like deputized, who is deputed to renew the temporal and secular order according to Christian principles. It's okay, let me stop there. Principles, it's okay, let me stop there. So then, what Jordan Almond is saying is you have been deputized to renew the world. That is your. You have been deputized to that according to Christian principles. You are to renew the world according to Christian principles. So how is your deputation going then? Right, what am I doing for that or towards that? It is especially incumbent on the laity to renew family life and civil society, as well as the various secular professions. Can you imagine what would happen to Wall Street if they started living according to the gospel, or Madison Avenue or the advertisers if they would start living according to the gospel values?
Speaker 2:Yeah, can you imagine how all of the voting processes at all the different stages of government, local, city, state, county, whatever, right, it'd be amazing. But we talked about that once upon a time too. What did you say? Because I didn't know what it was. I hadn't heard about it Making a Christian state, or something like that oh Christian nationalism. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I guess slippery slope, father, you got to be careful. Be careful what you ask for.
Speaker 1:That is very different from this.
Speaker 2:That is very different from this.
Speaker 1:That is very different from this. Okay, so in Numbers 34 and 35, there's an exhortation to the laity to enter into their mission with zeal and courage. So if you're interested I hope you are interested go and read Numbers 34 and 35 of Lumen Gentium. So let me jump to 36. And 35, so let me jump to 36. The faithful, therefore, must learn the deepest meaning and the value of all creation, all creation. The faithful, therefore, must learn the deepest meaning and the value of all creation, as well as its role, creation's role in the harmonious praise of God. They must assist each other to live holier lives, even in their daily occupations. In this way, the world may be permeated by the Spirit of Christ and it may more effectively fulfill its purpose in justice, charity and peace.
Speaker 1:The laity have the principal role in the overall fulfillment of this duty. Therefore, by their competence in secular training and by their activity elevated from within by the grace of Christ, let them vigorously contribute their effort so that created goods may be perfected by human labor, technical skill and civic culture for the benefit of all, according to the design of the Creator and the light of His Word. Moreover, let the Lady also, by their combined efforts, remedy the customs and conditions of the world. Conditions of the world if they are an inducement to sin, so that they all may be conformed to the norms of justice and may favor the practice of virtue rather than hinder it. So if we see that there is some sort of cultural value that is an inducement to sin, we are then called to remedy that situation. Okay, okay, we're almost towards the end of chapter. Okay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we kept getting off some tangents. Sorry guys. I think we can finish this one up, though. Sorry people.
Speaker 1:Okay. So Article 37 speaks of that a person's right to help in this mission and formation for this mission, yet also, in humble obedience, to accept the decisions of those who have a greater role in the guidance of the Church. Their pastors are reminded to respect and help the layperson feel empowered to engage in their proper apostolate. That's number 37. So now let me jump to 38. Each individual layman must stand before the world as a witness to the resurrection and the life of the Lord Jesus and a symbol of the living God. All the laity as a community, and each one according to his ability, must nourish the world with spiritual fruits. They must diffuse in the world that spirit which animates the poor, the meek, the peacemakers whom the Lord in the gospel proclaimed as blessed. In a word, I love that.
Speaker 2:The St John Chrysostom guy, like he's got some interesting thoughts. Yes, he does interesting thoughts.
Speaker 1:Yes, he does so. Now let me take this quote from the decree on the apostolate of the laity Apostolicum actuositatem. This is number two, on the apostolate of the laity. In the church, there is diversity of ministry but unity of mission To the Apostles and their successors. Christ has entrusted the office of teaching, sanctifying and governing in his name and by his power. But the laity are made to share in the priestly prophetic and kingly office of Christ. In the priestly prophetic and kingly office of Christ, they have therefore, in the church and in the world, their own assignment in the mission of the whole people of God, the characteristic of the lay state being a life led in the midst of the world and of secular affairs. Laymen are called by God to make of their apostolate through the vigor of their Christian spirit Again, 11 in the world.
Speaker 1:Okay, so Pope Paul VI expanded the role and functions of the laity with what is called the repression of the minor orders. Right, so you used to have the minor minor orders which were reserved for seminarians. Right to be ordained, you had porter, you had all these different minor orders right, according to the steps up towards priesthood. So, with the repression of the minor orders, and redefined them as ministries, not only reserved for the candidates for the sacrament of orders, but also for the ministries of the laity. Permanent lector and acolyte are still reserved for candidates to sacred orders, but the laity can serve as lectors and acolytes on a temporary basis.
Speaker 1:Okay, now, I have a quote here from Jacques Leclerc, who was a Belgian Roman Catholic theologian and priest. The laity, formed to the divine life of the Church, have to transform the world, and they will transform it if they are genuinely Christian. One of the fundamental tragedies of Christianity as it has developed in history is that the laity have not carried out their task. And perhaps this tragedy simply follows from another equally fundamental, namely that the clergy have not fulfilled theirs. The clergy were to form the laity and they have not done so to a sufficient degree. Then, for the lack of properly formed laymen. They have tried to take the place of the laity and have done so badly.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what we were talking about earlier with influencers and stuff. Yeah, and it's funny because I had forgotten about this when we were saying that at the beginning. This is exactly what happened. This guy was in the late 18,. Well, he was born in the late 1800s.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, like that alone is, I think, something for everybody to take to prayer. Have they been well-formed? And if well, I guess the first thing is to ask the Holy Spirit to help you to see right, To be very honest and genuine with your evaluation of yourself and your situation right. Have I been well catechized? Have I been well formed? If not, how do I do that and how do I support those who are supposed to be so? It's not. Let me go tell you, father, how you can better catechize everybody. It's how do I support you in doing what your mission is Right? And then, of course, that's going to make that feedback loop where we're going to get better priests and bishops because we have a better laity, and all that yes.
Speaker 2:So there, so there man, there's a, there's a lot in this, in this uh, chapter, to to think about. I understand now why you I'm sure, um, what was it? Chapters two and three, with the ones that we skipped? Yeah, um, I'm sure they're there. I know they're full of good stuff that probably make this even more impactful and insightful and everything. But I can see why you wanted to spend the time on this one that you did, because this is going to impact our next. This is this informs, this sets the stage for the next episode, the universal call to holiness. Yes, and all of these concepts are going to help us properly place and will properly understand Mary's place.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's good stuff. It's good stuff.
Speaker 1:I love my faith, me too.
Speaker 2:Well, this one's long, so we'll keep goodbyes short. Father, I hope you have a safe trip. I hope you get back safely. Thanks for this, everybody, thanks for joining us. We'll see you next time, bye, bye.
