My Friend the Friar
A podcast where we learn about our faith and share what it takes to live a Catholic Christian life through conversations and contemplations with my friend the friar, a Discalced Carmelite Priest.
My Friend the Friar
Exploring the Universal Call to Holiness
Join us for an engaging conversation with Father Stephen Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelite priest, who recently attended a Congress meeting in Boston. Father Stephen shares his experiences, from the joyful talks on the saints of Carmel to the camaraderie of the event. We even get a peek into the meticulous organization of his expansive library and introduce a new podcast feature that lets you, our listeners, send messages directly to us.
In our exploration of holiness, we dissect vital documents like Pope Pius XI's Casti Connubii and the Second Vatican Council's Lumen Gentium, revealing how every member of the Church is called to reflect Christ's holiness, regardless of their life situation. We discuss the shift from a hierarchical perspective to viewing the Church as a grace-filled community, and address the practical challenges and profound significance of living out this universal call to holiness in everyday life, drawing inspiration from Christ's love for His Church.
Lastly, we challenge the productivity mindset that often infiltrates our spiritual lives, transforming prayer into a checklist of tasks. Our reflections emphasize the value of unstructured, quality time with God, akin to the irreplaceable moments parents spend with their children. Delving into Teresa's profound themes of divine presence, we discuss how the soul houses the Trinity and how true holiness is a gift from God, not a mere moral achievement. Join us to embrace the journey to divine holiness, recognizing it as an invitation to participate in Christ's glory and love.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
Welcome to our podcast friends. Thank you so much for listening. If you like our podcast and want to support us, please subscribe or follow us, and please don't forget to click the notification bell so you will be notified when new episodes release. Thank you and God bless.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the friar, father Stephen Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelite priest. Good morning Father. Good morning John. I'm sorry. I always look around when we're in your library because all the things that I don't notice the last time I was here, I love it. I love that it smells like books, books. That's my favorite part, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Don't let Betty in here, because right now you probably know where everything is somehow. But she would reorganize it and then you'd know where nothing is. It'd be organized.
Speaker 1:but According to her understanding of how things should be organized.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Because that's the only way there is right, Her way.
Speaker 2:Maybe. Or I mean, how are they organized? Do you all use the Dewey Decimal System? I have no idea what they use. She would probably like bust that out. She's like making a card catalog or something.
Speaker 1:There is a card catalog on the computer, is there? Yeah, that's so cool that's so cool.
Speaker 2:All right, how was your trip? Which one the one to boston oh, it was good.
Speaker 1:It was good. You know, the the first few days were cool, like it was like 50s at night and 70s during the day, of course, but we weren't outside or inside. Uh, inside for the Congress, inside the Wakefield Marriott Hotel Very nice, it's an older hotel but it was very nice and the Congress was great. There's 350 participants.
Speaker 2:That's a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's good. And so we in the secular order there is. So there's the three provinces and each province has their territory and within the territory you have the secular order and it is organized so that each territory, the secular order, has its own provincial council and one of the friars is the delegate to the council. So before we had the Congress meeting we all flew in Wednesday. We had our own provincial council meeting for the OCDS on Wednesday evening preparing for the next day's interprovincial OCDS council meetings, for the three councils of the three provinces got together and so we did all that. That was from in the morning till in the afternoon, and then the afternoon there was a registration for the Congress, the people that were attending the Congress in the afternoon.
Speaker 1:So it was a full day. So Wednesday afternoon, wednesday evening, all day. All morning. Thursday, all afternoon, thursday afternoon, all day Friday, all day Saturday until midday Sunday. But it was very good. There was a different friars gave different talks on the joy of Carmel, one on Teresa of the Andes, on Therese. There was one of the nuns from the Boston Carmel gave a presentation on one of the books she had written. So it was a Zoom meeting from her monastery.
Speaker 2:So it was good. I was going to say, yeah, how'd she get?
Speaker 1:out. Yeah, it was good. That's cool, so how?
Speaker 2:many religious were there out of the 300?
Speaker 1:Probably 15, 20.
Speaker 2:That's cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there was the friars, the presenter, the, the delegates to the ocds, plus the presenters, plus the, the brothers in formation that are studying in washington. They're all helping with everything, and one of the brothers gave a very good presentation as well john merrick brother john mary yeah, so it was good, was uh vladimir there? Yes, yes, Vladimir is there. Yes.
Speaker 2:I want to meet that guy just because of his name, vladimir Guadalupe. That's so cool. That's so cool.
Speaker 1:Who's Teresa of the Andes? There's so many Teresas.
Speaker 2:I know so many Teresas in the order.
Speaker 1:Teresa of the Andes. The monastery is Los Andes, in Chile, and so she entered. She was from a very affluent family and she was, I think. She was also a musician, she was a pianist, and so she entered the monastery and she lived a very heroic life. She was very much in love with Christ, and so she has a couple of things. Not a whole lot is written, but Teresa of the Andes, she was recently, I don't know how recently. I forget now Everything, anything before yesterday.
Speaker 2:I have no idea.
Speaker 1:I live in that kind of a space and time thing. Those are one of the more recent saints of the order.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe we'll just do an episode on her or something, or maybe on some of them.
Speaker 1:The different saints of karma.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that'd be cool, that'd be cool.
Speaker 2:I almost forgot, but I wanted to remember the thing I told you. Don't let me forget that we wanted to before we get going. The fan mail thing, oh, yes, okay, so this is a new feature, I guess is what you'd call it. It's a new feature on the platform that we host our podcast podcast on and it it sends it out to, um, to all the different players. So it's so we we put it on one place and then it shares it with, like, apple podcast and spotify and wherever all like a lot. We set up a lot of them, so they're all over the place, but anyway, um, so the, the one that I'm going to use as an example, uh, is well, no, not not the content, that's okay well, I mean, I can too.
Speaker 2:Um, but the apple podcast is because I have an iphone, so that's what's on there. So underneath the episode, like if you scroll down and I'm assuming it's something similar to that on everything else, like spotify and whatever but if you scroll down below the podcast, there's always a description of the episode and at the very top it says send us a text. And then at the bottom we have our email address or like a Google form people can click on and fill out to submit questions.
Speaker 2:But the send us a text is a new thing and we've never used it before, so of course Betty stumbled across it.
Speaker 1:She's like what's this yeah?
Speaker 2:So, anyway, what's neat about it is because most people listen on their phones as well and I've never tried it on a computer, I've never done any of that stuff but if you click it on your phone it just literally takes you into your text messages and I guess we have some kind of phone number associated with our account to receive the text messages. But this is what's interesting about it. So you type in whatever you want to type in in the text message.
Speaker 2:So it can be like hey, you guys are awesome, or hey, you guys are terrible, or hey, I've got a question, or whatever and then it sends it to um, it sends it back to like we, we just get an email, we don't actually get a text message, we get an email and then we can log into the, the podcast like platform platform website thing and it'll. It will just show the notification that you've got fan mail and um, the only I know a lot of people in the world are all like nervous about giving, like sending emails because they don't want their email floating around out in space, Right privacy thing, right yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So what's kind of neat is when you do this. So all it shows? It shows the date that you sent it, it shows the location the cell phone number is registered in. So Betty's is from Carthage, texas, okay. And then it just shows the last four numbers of in the United States, the way our phone numbers are formatted. It just shows the last four numbers, and so she's put. Woe to you if you ignore my woeful request. And then some little emojis, because all of the Gospels lately where Jesus is like woe to you, pharisees and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and so anyway.
Speaker 1:The confrontation with the Pharisees and the scribes. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I thought it was super neat. So what I want to know is because? So I thought it was super neat. So what I want to know is because we get a lot of people who listen from other countries. Yes, I want to know if anybody out there from let's see where are the latest countries from, let me see Locations. So the last five we have listeners from Mexico, ireland, japan, the United Kingdom, canada and the United States, and I have no idea who y'all are, but we love all y'all and I want to know what the phone numbers look like. So if anybody who hears this, especially I mean you're in the United States, you can do it too, but we don't want to exclude anybody. But if you're from another country can do too. But, um, we don't want to exclude anybody, but if you're from another country, I would super love if you could send a fan mail, text message thing, so I can see what the phone number formatting looks like um, and then we'll just.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Next time we record an episode, we'll just see, you'll see. Yeah, anybody's responded to that give some shout outs yeah and uh, you can leave your name if you want. Um, you don't have to leave your name, you can be completely anonymous. It was super cool. We just wanted to point it out to everybody out there because we're excited about it. That's done. We're going to try our best to wrap this up Chapter 5 of Lumen Gentium.
Speaker 1:Finally talk on Chapter 8.
Speaker 2:Is there more in Chapter 5, but we we're gonna try and squeeze it in.
Speaker 1:We're gonna five the end we're gonna end with chapter five. Before we get, of course, I'll do a little recap on six and seven before we get to eight. But okay, but because we really want to talk about mary, mary this is all preparation for to talk the talk on mary and the the image of the church.
Speaker 2:Okay, ready to go.
Speaker 1:Okay, so a real, as quick as a recap as I can give. So we have seen, in the first chapter of Lumen Gentium, it deals with the mystery of the church and then, built upon this presentation of the mystery of the church, we have chapter 2, then that deals with the self-definition of those who make up the mystery of the church, and that is the people of God. That's chapter 2. So, continuing on then to chapter 3, from within the people of God springs forth, those who are called to lead and serve the people of God. Thus chapter 3 deals with the people of God. Thus chapter 3 deals with the hierarchy of bishops, in building on those three chapters. And we have chapter 4 that addresses those who are the bishops. They are called to form and lead and serve, and that is the laity. So the purpose of the bishops is to form, lead and serve, and so who are they called to form, lead and serve, and that is the laity. So that's the last chapter that we covered.
Speaker 1:So then, this now brings us to chapter five that explains the purpose for the formation of the people of God and the reason for the hierarchy's call to form and lead them, and that is their call to form and lead us in the way of holiness or to strive for holiness. And so the chapter five is entitled On the Universal Call to Holiness. So this universal call to holiness is not something new that the Council has thought up, but it is simply a recalling of what has always been the teaching of Christ to be holy as our Heavenly Father is holy, since that is the Father's perfection, perfect holiness, and that is expressed in the angelic proclamation of the Old Testament holy, holy, holy, right. That's the way they try to express that total otherness of God and that holiness of God.
Speaker 1:And then Pius XI touched upon our call to holiness, or he begins to expound on or recall the holiness of our occult in his 1930 encyclical Casti Conubi, which is on chaste wedlock right, chastity within marriage. What does that mean? Chastity does not mean celibacy within marriage, because that would not make sense. But the chastity is how do I keep a chaste relationship with my spouse and I don't commit the sin of lust against my spouse, right?
Speaker 2:How do?
Speaker 1:I maintain that chaste relationship, that relationship of respect right. It also dealt with Kosti Kanubi also dealt with the question of divorce, the question of contraception and the idea of eugenics, which is very popular. It was beginning to gain popularity in the 30s and the 40s and that has to do with improving the human gene pool and we saw some of that in Hitler's Germany, the idea of eugenics and purifying the race right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a strange feeling this is going to start making a comeback too, with all the genetic advances that have happened lately.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's very possible.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So, then, quoting from Kosti Kanubi this is on Christian marriage, and this is from paragraph 23. Of every condition, in whatever honorable walk of life they may be, can and ought to imitate that most perfect example of holiness placed before man by God, namely Christ, our Lord, and by God's grace, to arrive at the summit of perfection, as is proved by the example set us of many saints. So one of the things that Pope Pius XI is trying to bring up or recall, is that there is this call to sanctity that we all have an obligation to, and so this is something, then, that we need to kind of remind ourselves of. Right, and so this is what the Council builds upon is this idea of holiness and holiness on all walks of life. So let's recall that the Council Fathers began this document with chapter one that speaks of the mystery of the Church founded by and in Christ, and that it is in Christ that the call of holiness originates. So this is from paragraph one of Lumen Gentium, number one Christ is the light of nations.
Speaker 1:Lumen Gentium, because this is so, this sacred synod, gathered together in the Holy Spirit, eagerly desires, by proclaiming the gospel to every creature, to bring the light of Christ to all a light brightly visible on the countenance of the Church, an instrument both of a very closely knit union with God and of the unity of the whole human race.
Speaker 1:It desires now to unfold more fully, to the faithful of the Church and to the whole world, its own inner nature and universal mission.
Speaker 1:Then, number eight by the power of the risen Lord, it is given strength that it might, in patience and in love, overcome its sorrows and challenges, both within itself and from without, and that it might reveal to the world faithfully, though darkly, meaning imperfectly, the mystery of its Lord until in the end it will be manifested in full light.
Speaker 1:It will be manifested in full light, in full light. So one of the things that the image that is used is in that we as church, as community and bride of Christ, as we are facing Christ or we are in this relationship with Christ, that the glory of Christ, the holiness of Christ, the holiness of God, will shine upon the countenance of the church, upon the face of the bride, and we then, as bride, are called to reflect out into the world this holiness that is reflected upon the face of the church. The holiness of Christ is reflected onto the face of the church, and then we as church should reflect it out into the world, and that's where this whole idea of the universal call of holiness is coming from. Again, going back to the whole idea that we talked about, whichever episode it was, on the primacy of Christ.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's all about Christ. It's all about Jesus, right, and how we, as bride of Christ, we have to consider and seriously enter into a commitment of holiness and to manifest it to the world. So that's in chapter 1. So then, in chapter 2 of Lumen Gentium, on the people of God, we have the reminder at the end of the article, paragraph 11, reminder at the end of the article, paragraph 11, where it states Fortified by so many and such powerful means of salvation, referring to sacraments, we have all these sacraments which are aids to our salvation, our redemption, our holiness, all the faithful, whatever their condition or state, are called by the Lord, each in his own way, to that perfect holiness whereby the Father himself is holy or is perfect. So then, entering into the text of chapter 5. So then, as we had discussed before, the original schema, or the original draft, presented a strongly juridical and hierarchical version, right? And so we have here a quote from Frederick Wolfe. This is a quote from his book the Call of the Whole Church to Holiness. So here we quote the author. Concerning the first draft, it contained special chapters on resident bishops, on the magisterium of the church, on authority and obedience and on the relations between church and state, which have all been omitted. So they're in other places now, in the documents of the Second Vatican Council. They're not in this document on the church right. Instead, the emphasis is now laid on the church as the work of grace, but this must be manifested by the holiness of her members.
Speaker 1:So Chapter 5 begins with paragraph number 39. So the opening of Article 39 restates the indefectible holiness of the Church. Because of Christ's holiness and his union to his bride, the Church, the first part and the last part of number 39 re-emphasize the universal nature of the call to holiness. So the first part of 39. Emphasize the universal nature of the call to holiness. So the first part of 39. The Church, whose mystery is being set forth by this sacred synod, is believed to be indefectibly holy. Indeed, christ, the Son of God, who with the Father and the Spirit is praised as uniquely holy, loved the Church as his bride, delivering himself up for her. He did this so that he might sanctify her. He united her to himself as his own body and brought it to perfection by the gift of the Holy Spirit for God's glory. Therefore, in the Church, everyone, whether belonging to the hierarchy, the formators, or being cared for by it is called to holiness. Now the last part of 39.
Speaker 1:However, this holiness of the church is unceasingly manifested and must be manifested, in the fruits of grace which the Spirit produces in the faithful. It is expressed in many ways in individuals who, in their walk of life, tend toward the perfection of charity, thus causing the edification of others. In a very special way, this holiness appears in the practice of the councils, customarily called evangelical poverty, chastity, obedience. This practice of the councils, under the impulsion of the Holy Spirit, undertaken by many Christians, either privately or in a church-approved condition or state of life, gives and must give in the world an outstanding witness and example of this same holiness. So here it's interesting.
Speaker 1:So this last part of 39. This holiness of the church is unceasingly manifested and must be manifested in the fruits of grace which the Spirit produces in the faithful. So it's both again we go back to that both and right. So it is being manifested and it must be manifested. So there's a continual progression and a continuing call to this manifestation of holiness right, and so it sort of is in a very covert way, is speaking also about consecrated life. Right, those that take the evangelical councils and they're called to give witness of this holiness, right? So then, okay, now let's go into the attainment of holiness. It is unfortunate that in the Western culture, especially in the United States, because of its business mentality and the whole culture of possessing things and achieving goals, there has been a misunderstanding of the nature and source of holiness. Many people assume that holiness is based upon a personal effort to achieve holiness, this idea being that it is an objective goal that can be accomplished by those who are truly willing to sacrifice and work at achievement.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that really stuck out to me Because, being in America, everything is what can you produce, what can you achieve? Are you working? Are you trying hard enough? Are you pulling yourself up by your bootstraps and all that kind of stuff? But last I checked, there's nothing I can do to make myself holy.
Speaker 1:Correct.
Speaker 2:It's. God makes things holy, jesus makes me holy, holy Spirit. So it's more about the realization I had. Is that it's more about my willingness to cooperate than anything else.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and I think it's important. It's a very subtle thing and most people are not aware of it because it's such a subtle thing thing or it's. It's such a cultural um, it's part of our cultural life here in the west, in the united states, this whole idea of achievement and productivity right, and that works fine in your business. I mean you should produce, I mean they're paying you a just wage and you must give that labor for that just wage, and so it's fine in that and it has its place. But when somehow, subconsciously or unconsciously, it bleeds over into your religiosity or into your understanding of relationship with God, then what happens is this idea of productivity comes in and makes everything that much harder, because I'm trying to produce something that I'm incapable of producing, because only God can, only God is holy, only God is holy. And so the idea then that I have to achieve holiness, and the idea that it's an objective goal, makes the journey that much more difficult.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I like that you pointed out how subtle it is, because by no means does that give me the um, I don't know the scapegoat or whatever to. Oh well, I don't have to try then, because if that's again, it comes down to my willingness to cooperate that's the only thing, I guess, if, if anything, that's the only thing that I can possibly strive for, is an increased willingness to cooperate, no matter what the situation is Right.
Speaker 1:But I have to be aware of the situation and what I'm being called to am task-oriented. Am I bringing that sort of orientation into my religious life, and religious as in a faithful discipleship, not a consecrated religious, even though that applies there too? Is it all task-oriented? Am I task-oriented? Okay, so I did this, I did this, I did this, I did this other religious thing, so I fulfilled all my religious observances and requirements. Right and so, okay, I'm good, I'm done Like.
Speaker 1:No, those things are very good, those things are aids and they're helps, but the real conversion, the real sanctity, the real holiness is a process, and so this is something that we have to become aware of that it's not a matter of the perfect execution of tasks, it's. Do I understand that the sacraments and sacramentals that these are helps towards my own conversion, my own surrender, right? So this whole idea of okay, like the primacy of the Eucharist in the sacramental life of the church, is more than just celebrating the Eucharist. It is a matter of am I surrendering myself with the bread and the wine, through Jesus Christ, to the Father? Am I aware of the fact that I am offering myself? That is the celebration of the year? Yeah, it's not just.
Speaker 2:well, if I just keep, I'll just go have communion every day, I'll go to daily mass and all of a sudden I'll be better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, yeah, it's just, you can't do that. It's more than that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and there's it makes me think of. One other thing is and I don't remember if it was back when I was a teacher or if it's something I heard about being a parent, but the phrase was basically one of the best things you can do for your kids or with your kids is to just waste time with them, yeah, and say the right thing in the right moment that helps them to achieve or whatever their goal is, or to stay out of trouble, or to grow up to be wise. You can want all those things and it's fine, but it's the culmination of all the actual time you spent with the person that builds that relationship that even allows for the opportunities. And so, when it comes to God, it's the same thing. Right, like I can go to confession every day if I wanted to, but it's not the act necessarily. It's the nearness to God, that spending time with Him, drawing near to Him. That, I think, is more, I guess, efficacious than actually doing the thing.
Speaker 1:I want to qualify that, because it should be quality time.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah. So, like the wasting time, it doesn't mean just sit there and do nothing right, but it's just to be with that person.
Speaker 1:Right. So if you okay this whole idea, then let's take this example of this parental relationship, right? So okay, I want to be a good dad, I want to be a good mom, so I need to go spend time with my kids. So I go and I sit with them and or you know whatever. But my whole idea is okay. It's not about the relationship with the child, it's about I am fulfilling my task. It's really it's about I am fulfilling my task. It's really about me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I am fulfilling my task of being a good parent. So, okay, I've checked that box. Yeah, right, but are you effectively present to the child? Is there compassion, is there understanding, is there empathy? All these things that are dynamic parts of a relationship, and you can always go back to our episode and listen on relationships, how important that is. And so it has to be qualitative, because there are people, again, if you have this task orientation, even wasting time, okay, so I'm going to go waste one hour sitting before the Blessed Sacrament. So I go, and I go sit before the Blessed Sacrament in the Perpetual Adoration Chapel for an hour and then, okay, then I have given him an hour, right, and so then I go off, happy with myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, when really you missed it. And you can apply that same thing to, obviously to God. You can do it to your spouse, yes, you can apply it with your friends, anyone, whatever, Anyone, right.
Speaker 1:So, again, it is part of this whole idea, then, of this relational aspect and this quality time, of spending time with the Lord, and so this is the holiness part. The holiness is it's not. I shouldn't see it as a finish line. There's a line I have to cross, and once I cross that and I become holy, then I've arrived and I can live my life again Like well. No, that's not the way you should see it. It is a continual conversion, it is a continual transformation, and that is what this call to holiness is and that's how we should understand holiness. Right is that?
Speaker 1:idea of continual conversion.
Speaker 1:So it's worthwhile to remember also that, as I said earlier, that only God is holy, and in the Old Testament this is expressed by what I referred to earlier as God being thrice holy.
Speaker 1:You know the angelic proclamation holy, holy, holy, right that is. It is a sanctity that is beyond our comprehension, and, built upon that truth, the truth of God's complete and total other holiness that is so other I can't even understand what that really is. So built upon that truth is also, then, the truth of our adoption into God through Jesus Christ, so that the true source of holiness in the believing Christian is not himself, but the very holiness of the triune God that dwells within of the triune God that dwells within. The holiness of the Christian is merely the Christian, allowing the holiness of the risen Christ to shine forth in and through himself herself into the world. It should not be understood as a passive participation, but an active cooperation with the grace that has given us to remove all the impediments of the sanctity that is already mine, and so by that I mean I have to look at myself and ask myself what are the things in my life that are keeping God's, christ's holiness and jewels within me?
Speaker 1:What are the things that are keeping it from manifesting itself right? Is it my attitude? Am I always looking for something to complain about? Am I always looking for imperfection? Am I always being critical? Am I always doubting? Am I always fearful? Do I struggle with perfectionism? All those things are things that can impede, then, this holiness of shining forth in our lives. Of course, again, that I do my part. I do my part of getting out of the way of God's holiness in my life, and again, it doesn't necessarily mean the execution of perfection. Right now I'm thinking of, there is and of course now his name has completely gone out of my head, but there is a saint who dealt with alcoholism. I think Lawrence. It might be Lawrence is his first name, I forget now, but he and I was like wow, he struggled with it.
Speaker 1:He struggled with addiction, and so I go like, wow, he struggled with it, he struggled with addiction, and so I go like, wow, and then he's a saint. He's a saint, the church has declared him a saint, and so it's not about perfection or what we understand perfection to be. And this again goes back to this whole idea of the Western mind and that idea of productivity I need to produce perfectly, I need to execute perfectly. No, the perfection that we're talking about is the perfection of love, the perfection of charity. That is the perfection that we strive for, or we should strive for, is the imitation of Christ's perfect love. That is a perfection that we speak of right.
Speaker 2:I think it was St Matthias is what I'm finding online.
Speaker 1:Matthias, as in the apostle. Oh, no, no, no, yeah, what's his last name? Was it out with an H? I don't remember now, yeah, yeah, yeah might be matthias, okay.
Speaker 1:So now I'm going to quote saint teresa of jesus, saint teresa of avila, and I'm going to quote from her work in the interior castle, where she describes the soul as seven levels of degrees of intimacy with the Lord, right From the first mansions into the seventh mansion, and their different degrees of commitment to the Lord. So this is from the first mansion, chapter one, paragraph one. For in reflecting upon it carefully, sisters, she's talking to her nuns we realize that the soul of the just person is nothing else but a paradise where the Lord says he finds his delight. So then, what do you think that abode will be like, where a king so powerful, so wise, so pure, so full of all good things takes his delight? I don't find anything comparable to the magnificent beauty of a soul and its marvelous capacity, capacity Indeed. Our intellects, however keen, can hardly comprehend it, just as they cannot comprehend God, but he himself says that he created us in his own image and likeness. And then, from the same mansions, the first mansions, and this is from chapter 2,. This is paragraph 3, excuse me. It should be kept in mind here that the font, the shining sun that is in the center of the soul, does not lose its beauty and splendor. It is always present in the soul and nothing can take away its loveliness. But if a black cloth is placed over a crystal that is in the sun, obviously the sun's brilliance will have no effect on the crystal, even though the sun is shining on it. Okay, so, comment on these two quotes from Teresa.
Speaker 1:Comment on these two quotes from Teresa.
Speaker 1:One is the magnificent capacity of the soul to be the dwelling place of the Trinity, the fact that the universe that cannot contain God dwells in the soul, and this indwelling, then, is the source of the holiness that we're called to. So how do I, how do I, how do I connect to that indwelling presence? How do I allow that indwelling presence to manifest itself in my life in such a way that the holiness of God himself can become present in the world? Right? So there's this treasure in this earthen vessel. So this is something, then, that we need to spend time reflecting upon. So, when it comes to the idea of holiness and striving for holiness, or the universal call to holiness, it's already mine, it belongs to me because God dwells in me, and so what do I need to do to make sure that that manifests itself in my relationships, in the way that I relate to the world? And so then she goes on to say and that second quote, sort of like the, the signing, the, the sunning shine the shining sun on the crystal right.
Speaker 1:So like if in um, the beginning of of interior council, she talks about this whole being like a diamond, right, and how, if the sun shines on this diamond, how it, how resplendent it can be. So it's, it's reflecting light. It's not its own light, it's reflecting light and it goes. This goes back to this whole idea of the bride of Christ standing with Christ and the glory of Christ shining on the countenance of the bride and how now the bride must reflect this glory into the world, and sort of that idea, then, of this diamond that is sparkling.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really like that imagery too. And again, thinking back to the church and thinking back to the gospel, what Jesus says about marriage he goes well. That's why the two become one flesh.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So when they're one flesh, it's not two people cohabitating, they are one thing Right. And so if the church is the bride of Christ, then it's again, it's like a logical necessity that she is part of him and she's going to reflect his light. And I like the imagery of the diamond too, because anyone who's seen a diamond and you shine light in it, it's just, it's beautiful, right yeah.
Speaker 1:And so there is also there is the idea that they're too distinct and we don't become Jesus, right, even though we are united to him. We do not become Jesus, but we are so united to him that in his mind and in the church's mind, it's not Jesus and me, it's us, it's we. Their identity. The identity changes from I to we.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the whole, both and yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so this is where this whole part, then, of this universal call to holiness, and so that, because Christ is such a generous spouse and is so other centered as Christ, as the word of God, he's so other centered that everything that is his is mine, right, and Paul talks about this. I already have all the treasures in heaven in Christ, right, and so he gives me everything that is his, and so part of that is his holiness. And for us in the Eastern Church we talk about divinization, so even his own Godhead, he wants to share with me His Godness, he wants to share with me His Godness. He wants to share with me and give to me, and that is, then the divinization of the church, of the bride of Christ, right. So, and again, this is where the universal call to holiness comes from. It comes from going back to the primacy of Christ and our understanding of who he is, and then our call to imitate that holiness, that glory right he is, and then our call to imitate that holiness, that glory right. So then, continuing on, I have another quote here.
Speaker 1:This is again from Frederick Wolff, about this chapter on the universal call to holiness. The chapter opens with the declaration that the church is indefectibly holy, so that the holiness of the individual is always a mere participation in the holiness of the church, proclaiming as it must, the holiness of the church. My holiness, or the holiness that I'm striving for, is a proclamation of the holiness of the church, which is a bride of Christ and therefore united to Christ, and therefore the holiness comes from Christ himself. That's what all this is about, right? So, christian holiness continuing on with the quote Christian holiness is not primarily, much less exclusively, moral perfection, heroic human virtue, but primarily and in the deepest sense, the glory, the doxa, the glory and the love, the agape of God given to the redeemed without any merit on their part, total gift, complete and total gift.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that just echoes back to what was said about how, oh gosh, just that you can't earn it. It's not something that you achieve.
Speaker 1:It's impossible, it is supernatural and I need supernatural assistance, supernatural aid, and so I can't do something supernatural. And if I try to do something supernatural, I'm going to collapse, I'm going to break down because I cannot do it. It's outside of my capacity. And this is where a lot of people get confused, in that they think that moral perfection right, it's about moral perfection. If I am morally perfect, I am holy. No, no. So another cross tells us if you allow yourself to fall in love with Christ, a moral life and an ethical life follows naturally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard that before too, and that's something that I think it's interesting the journey that we go on as we grow in our conversion and our relationship with Jesus, because I'm sure you've seen too and for me I guess it's not so long ago that I can't remember it, but it's like when you have that moment and and that first step of conversion, and you're so zealous and you're just like I want to do all these things, you know, and then and that's fine and that's good, yeah, but then zeal is good, yeah, and slowly you start to go well, man, I I'm messing all this stuff up and I'm still failing and I'm doing it all wrong, and and then that slowly turns into the realization of, oh well, I can't do it right.
Speaker 2:And then you've got to grapple with that, you know, and your own natural inadequacies because you're not God. And then you're like well, I thought I was over that, thought that I was God, but I guess not. And it just keeps continuing as your relationship grows and I just I think it's wonderful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it is, and that's a critical point in almost every disciple's journey is that once I realize that I can't do it on my own, I'm not in control, or I'm not as in control as I wish I were, then the question is okay, can you accept that in humility and allow your journey to continue? Can you continue to strive, knowing that it all comes from?
Speaker 2:God.
Speaker 1:My desire for holiness comes from God. My efforts at it come from God, even my desire to desire comes from God. It is all from Him and I think that's really difficult for some people because, again going back to the culture, we're taught to be self-sufficient, especially here in Texas.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just saying I bet a lot of people get stuck right there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we pick up ourselves by our own bootstraps here, and so when you bring that into your relationship with God, it messes it up.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I tell people that the Catholicism in North Texas is very different from the Catholicism in other parts of Texas or the southern part of Texas where real Catholicism where I come from in San Antonio yeah. So it's very different.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's very different, because here I think, the church is surrounded by all these. We're here in the middle of the buckle of the Bible Belt, and so there is a different way of approaching Catholicism that can be influenced by the outside culture, and instead of going like, okay, no, I need to really focus on the indwelling and the truth of the indwelling, and the truth that the sanctity that I'm called to is Christ's and it's my mere participation in his holiness. And that makes the journey a lot easier If I realize that and recognize that. It makes it a lot easier If I know that I already have it within myself instead of striving for something outside of myself. Right, it's easier for me to like oh, it's already mine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's such. It's already mine, yeah, yeah, and that's such a kind of flip, yeah, metaphysical, like everything you have to. Everything will flip when you can get there, but to grasp for it you've got to spend so much time chewing on it before it clicks. I bet Peter would have been a good Texan. He probably would have been a good onean.
Speaker 1:He probably would have been a good one. Yeah, maybe that's where he was really. He was really from. Yeah, texas saint peter texas okay, and I think one of the things again, this, this quote from Wolfe, and you highlighted it here without any merit on their part traditional traditions or whatever faith tradition you belong to.
Speaker 1:There is this human tendency to want to merit and as catholics we know we cannot, and protestants know that as well. But it's funny to me, it's funny that in both sides of that camp those camps, you know, whether it's a catholic or a protestant people try to merit without meriting and that is so, uh like okay.
Speaker 2:So yeah, it's very it's. It's to me. It reminds me of speaking of all the woes, betty. It's very pharisee kind of yeah, thinking like the right. He's like oh, you tie up all the burdens, but you won't lift a finger right so it's. It's like they don't realize that they are their own problem, right? So it's like well, I'm trying to merit it without trying to merit it, but I'm still doing it right and the other.
Speaker 1:The other extreme in that is, I become so aware of the fact that I'm the problem. I become so obsessed with my fact being the problem that I still don't allow the grace to happen because I'm so obsessed with me. Am I getting in the way? Am I getting in the way? Are my wounds getting in the way? Are my traumas getting in the way? And then that happens, and then I still don't allow the grace to work because I'm so obsessed with myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that was Martin Luther's problem at the beginning.
Speaker 1:Probably, yeah, probably yeah, there's a lot of things going on there. So, going on to number 40 of chapter 5. The Lord Jesus, the divine teacher and model of all perfection, preached holiness of life to each and every one of his disciples, of every condition. So number 40, then, and model of all perfection, preached holiness of life to each and every one of his disciples of every condition. So number 40, then, deals with holiness in different states of life and how it should produce different things in us, and this is a little synopsis of number 40 is synopsis of number 40 is holiness produces. One, a more human way of life, and two, it produces an abundant harvest of good. So that's what number 40 is about. Excuse me and I have another quote here, and this is also from Wolf the means of perfection are stated that the following of Christ configuration to him, above all in the readiness to serve and to lay down one's life for others and therefore obedience to the Father's will. So then, this is the question it's not about my perfect attendance, it's not my perfect recitation of prayers, even though all those things are great. Attends at Mass, all those are helps and means. I'm not saying that you shouldn't do that I'm saying is are those sacraments and sacramentals helping me to configure myself to the image of Christ in my readiness to serve others and to lay down my life for others? Right, that is the question. How are these things helping me in that?
Speaker 1:And then in number 41, there's some concrete ways of attaining holiness and the perfection of charity, and that depends on one's situation and duties. This is what number 41 is about. So there are some general things that can be said about this. One, we should use our strengths and talents as a gift from Christ. Two, we should follow Christ and become like him, seeking the Father's will in all things, the glory of God and the good of our neighbor. Three, we should use our personal gifts and fulfill our duties in the spirit of faith, working through love. 4. We should receive all things with faith from the hand of the Heavenly Father.
Speaker 1:These four means of attaining holiness can be grouped into two basic attitudes One, the spirit to accept all things as coming from the living hand of God. And two, the aim to do all things in accordance with God's will, out of love for him. Okay, and it goes on to speak of paths of holiness. Right as it can this chapter right the paths of holiness for different vocations or states of life. So for bishops, the path to holiness is the perfect duty of pastoral charity, episcopal care, service, prayer, sacrifice and preaching, laying down their lives for their sheep and the promotion of greater holiness by example.
Speaker 2:Okay, I think I have a strange feeling. This last chapter, or this last little paragraph right here, is something that all of us should probably take to prayer.
Speaker 1:Yes, probably yes. I would suggest that. And the path of holiness for priests to form the spiritual crown of the bishops. They're ordinaries, right? So we're all under bishops, right. So to form the spiritual crown of the bishops, priests should grow daily in love of God and neighbor through the exercise of their office, priestly, fraternity, and give witness to all by an abundance of every spiritual good, prayer and sacrifice for the entire people of God. Clerics, so it should be anybody that is studying, so it would be permanent deacons, transitional deacons, seminarians that are in theologate. They're considered clerics or religious that are studying for priesthood. They're considered clerics as well, to be free from every vice and are to be personifications of goodness and friends of God. The path of holiness for married couples and are to be personifications of goodness and friends of God. The path of holiness for married couples Faithful love, be a lifelong sustaining force for each other, form their children in faith and virtue. And for all those who suffer, their path to holiness is they are called to unite themselves to the sufferings of Christ.
Speaker 2:Okay, we made it.
Speaker 1:We made it to the end.
Speaker 2:Can you give us a little like set the stage now why all of that was necessary? So now we can talk about Mary.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the whole idea then of Mary remember, we talked about the big fight at the council was that they wanted a separate document on Mary.
Speaker 1:I wanted a separate document on Mary and da-da-da-da. And then the whole idea, then the work of the Holy Spirit, is then that Mary be considered, since she is the first of the redeemed, that her place is actually within the community of belief terms of the mystery of the church, uh, the, who are the people of god, and then who are the formators of the people of god and the, and the reason for their formation is to strive for, uh or the laity, and then that it's a matter of striving for holiness for everyone in the church, in the mystery, and it's important, then, that we understand this and have this context so that we can understand Mary's role within the mystery of the church, within the people of God, that she is part of right and within the body of laity that is called to holiness right. And she has a very unique role as being immaculately conceived and the mother of God. There's a very unique role as being immaculately conceived and the mother of God.
Speaker 2:There's a very unique role, but that goes to the primacy of Christ. Yes, because Mary doesn't really mean anything without Jesus. Exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's why it's important that we get all this lay, all this groundwork, so that we can actually talk about then Mary and the eschatological church that we're pointed towards. The second coming that is one of the primary reasons that we celebrate the Eucharist is until you come again we proclaim your death and we're waiting for you to come again.
Speaker 2:That's good. That's good. I think we're ready. I think we're ready.
Speaker 1:I don't know if anybody else is. That's okay. That's okay. Well, think we're ready.
Speaker 2:I think we're ready. I don't know if anybody else is. That's okay. That's okay. Well, thank you for this. So we're going to wrap it up Again. Everybody who's listening, thank you for listening. Please share us with others and send us whatever it says. Send us a text message. Send us a text. Send us that fan mail. We're really curious to see where you're from and you know. If you have any questions, throw them our way.
Speaker 1:Otherwise, and even if your English is really really poor, then just send an emoji or something. Yes, send us emojis. Use Google Translate. Whatever. Translate something, it's fine.
Speaker 2:Or send it in another language. We can do the Google Translate.
Speaker 1:There you go. That might be fun yeah.
Speaker 2:But anyway, Father, thank you for this. Thanks for inviting me out here to Mount Carmel. This is fun Always good to come visit.
Speaker 1:Smell all the books.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:God bless, bye, bye.
