My Friend the Friar
A podcast where we learn about our faith and share what it takes to live a Catholic Christian life through conversations and contemplations with my friend the friar, a Discalced Carmelite Priest.
My Friend the Friar
Mary's Spiritual Significance in the Pilgrim Church
Can understanding the role of Mary change your perspective on the Church? Join me and Father Stephen Sanchez as we navigate the profound teachings of Lumen Gentium, focusing on the essential yet often misunderstood role of Mary. We promise this exploration will deepen your appreciation of the Church's spiritual dimensions and unveil how integral Mary is to the narrative of salvation. You'll also hear updates on my mother's health journey, a personal testament to the enduring nature of faith and resilience.
We delve into Mary's pivotal role in salvation history and her unique position as a mediator. Father Stephen and I clarify the Catholic understanding of her mediation in harmony with Jesus, dismantling common misconceptions and underscoring the importance of proper catechesis. We explore Mary's enduring influence as a disciple and her eschatological significance, setting the stage for future discussions. We express heartfelt thanks for your support and prayers, and we're excited to continue our journey with you in upcoming episodes.
Have something you'd love to hear Fr. Stephen and John talk about? Email us at myfriendthefriar@gmail.com or click here!
I'm Aida Lee and you're listening to my Friend the Friar. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my Friend the Friar, Father Stephen Sanchez, a Discalced Carmelite Priest. Good morning, Father. Good morning, Good morning. It has been so long. It's been four months.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, you want to give us an update on your mom.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what a four months. Okay, so mom has it's been a roller coaster. She is doing as well as she can, um, she has. Uh, we moved her up to Dallas for rehab and she finished, um, her rehab, uh, stint up here and we took her back home to corpus, where we're from corpus christi, texas, and right before christmas. So we did christmas and years and all that stuff, um, and she still needs some rehab, right, she still needs help. It's all. It's what we're learning is there is no, you're done, it's just you just keep moving forward. Right, one of the um, this lady that we talked to at one facility, she said, uh, there's no going back, um, you just keep moving forward and you change directions as you need to and you just keep moving forward. So that's what we're doing. So she's, we're working to get her into a place for more rehab down home to see if she can get well enough to be able to go home.
Speaker 1:So, as you heard in our intro, she was excited, she wanted to do our introduction for us, and so we're going to be talking about Mary finally. Good golly, this is. We knew this was going to be a minute because we're like, okay, before we can talk about Mary, we have to talk about all these other things. So this thing makes sense. Well, and it's not specifically Mary, it's Mary and Lumen Gentium, right, right, we gotta tell you a story, to be able to tell you a story, kind of thing. And then this happened with mom. So, um, that story got drawn way, way out, um, so, yeah, so so mom opened us up for, uh, us to talk about our mother, mother Mary, yes, and so that's kind of where we're at Keep moving forward, we'll see how she's doing, you know, and God is good, yes, all the time, all right, so goodness, and this is going to be a long one too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is going to be multiple episodes. I'll probably let mom open all these episodes just for funsies, and I don't think we need to recap anybody on what we were talking about, because they can just go listen to the last episode. When you're online, it's just a click away, not months and months and months Before Last episode, for when you're online it's just a click away, not months and months and months Before we get started. Though, I do want to say I remembered right at the Epiphany the other day, because we're recording this beginning-ish of January. So we had the Epiphany the other day and I went oh, we've got a great episode on the Epiphany. So I want to encourage everyone go see if you can find our epiphany episode from a year or so ago and give it a listen. It's really good.
Speaker 1:And speaking of a year or so ago, do you realize, man, that we've been doing this since 2022? No, yeah, we've been doing this for a while. So that's kind of I don't know. That's just boggled my mind out. When I logged into the podcast hosting website, it was like all these statistics and stuff. I was like 2022, holy cow, that's been a long time. And we have and we are up to 56 different countries for our listeners, so that's really kind of cool. We've got a lot from Europe now, so I think there must be some kind of European podcasting platform. That's real popular, that we got listed in, okay and so, anyway, really cool Just kind of sharing some stuff. I have no idea who the latest country is, but you are out there. Thank you for listening. Um and then, yeah, I think I think that's a good recap. I think that's gonna get us caught up before we ramble and I'll let you just kick us off, okay.
Speaker 2:So we originally I wanted to talk on Mary, the Blessed Mother, especially as it is defined for us, the Mariology, a Christological, healthy Mariology that is in Lumen Gentium, which is Chapter 8. But I said before I talk about Chapter 8, we need to talk a little bit about Lumen Gentium itself. So we did an episode on Chapter 1, which is on the mystery of the Church, we did something on Chapter 4, which is on the laity, something on Chapter 5, the universal call to holiness, on the laity, something on chapter five, the universal call to holiness, and to get us ready to speak about chapter eight, the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God in the mystery of Christ and the Church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because one of the things you're supposed to not do is you're not supposed to take things out of context or like pieces. It's all a whole… it's all integrated, it's all one cohesive piece.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's one of the things that we talked about when we first started talking about the conciliar documents is that they're all supposed to be read in the context of each other, so you need to read them all to understand them and to have a context, and so that's why we started doing this, started doing this, and so now, before we finally get to chapter eight, which is the chapter I've, been wanting to talk about.
Speaker 2:Let me just give a brief overview of chapter six, which is on religious, and chapter seven, which is on the Pilgrim Church. So chapter six on religious. So, within the context of this document then, so within the mystery of the church, which is chapter one of Lumen Gentium, which was promulgated by Pope Paul VI on November 21st 1964. So, within the mystery of the church made up of the people of God, which is chapter two on the people of God, the laity, which is chapter four, formed and guided by the hierarchy, which is chapter 2 on the people of God, the laity, which is chapter 4, formed and guided by the hierarchy, which is chapter 3, along the way of the universal call to holiness, which is chapter 5, we have those laity who discern that their response to this call to holiness resides in their public profession of the evangelical councils of poverty, chastity and obedience. We refer to them as those in consecrated life. So let me just restate that, within the mystery of the Church made up of the people of God, the laity, formed and guided by the hierarchy along its way of the universal call to holiness, there are those who have chosen, those laity who have chosen to discern that their response to this call to holiness resides in their public profession of the evangelical councils of poverty, chastity and obedience, those that we call those that are in consecrated life. I study in obedience, those that we call those that are in consecrated life.
Speaker 2:Okay, so chapter six, on religious or consecrated life in Lumen Gentium deals with the structure of religious life within and at the heart of the church's call to holiness. There are many forms of religious life and chapter 6 deals with the duty of the church, in her hierarchy the bishops, the ordinaries to ensure a stable form of living this life. Religious life is seen and understood as a charism, a gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church, to the people of God. These individuals consecrated deepen their baptismal consecration by taking on either vows of religious orders or promises in religious congregations or institutions.
Speaker 2:In religious congregations or institutions, the reason for the existence of religious is that of a public witness to the eschaton that we all await, that there is a divine will that matters more than my own will, that there is a treasure that is enduring above and beyond any material good imaginable, and that the ultimate significant relationship is that relationship with God through His Christ.
Speaker 1:So this would be well, so you're, is this all? How do I ask this religious? A none would be religious. Yes, okay, you are religious. Yes, well, a religious sorry, obviously you're religious.
Speaker 2:A religious, yeah, okay, you are religious.
Speaker 1:Yes, well, a religious Sorry, obviously you're religious, yeah, a religious, yeah, yeah, okay, so does this also apply to diocesan priests?
Speaker 2:No, they're not religious.
Speaker 1:Okay, so this. Yeah, those guys aren't religious at all.
Speaker 2:They're not religious. What the?
Speaker 1:heck yeah.
Speaker 2:So this is just for Okay, so, yeah, that's why it makes sense then, that it's like a charism like each monastery, like for the monastery of our nuns, for the abbots of the Benedictine monasteries, they are the ordinaries of that house, right? They are the. Each house is autonomous, okay. We as friars, each house is not autonomous. We belong to a province, right? So all the houses are associated together into one ordinary, okay. Now the reason I bring this up is that there is a responsibility to maintain order within religious life, and we've seen recently in news that there are some religious monasteries and associations that have strayed, that have become rebellious and stuff, and because that's because there hasn't been enough vigilance over them, right? Or they're refusing the vigilance that is required to be taken by the ordinaries or the bishops.
Speaker 1:So that's why we need that, yeah, yeah and that makes total sense. So we've talked about that all the time how easy it is to wander off into left field, kind of. Thing because you're just thinking your own thought and you're kind of stuck in your own head and you've said many times, like a sister and a nun are not necessarily the same thing right. So would a group of lay sisters kind of thing, and I know nuns are lay too, but anyway, are they considered religious? Yes, okay, are they?
Speaker 2:considered religious? Yes, okay, see, the word nun refers to Ammoniale, which is a female monk, right. So someone that lives in the enclosure, the visitandi nuns, the discussed Carmelite nuns, or the Carmelite nuns of the ancient observance, the Redemptoristines, the Trappistines, all those are nuns. They live in a monastery, secluded in enclosure, right, and the sisters are the sisters that usually are in active ministry, in teaching or in missionary work or what. They're sisters, they're religious, but sister is someone who. The term sister refers to someone who belongs to a congregation or an institution. The term nun belongs to a female consecrated who belongs to a monastic order.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's not wrong to call a nun sister. I'm sure they call each other sister.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they call each other sister, but you should not call a sister nun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. And then I guess a great example of sisters are is it Sisters of the Poor? Mother Teresa's yeah.
Speaker 2:Missionaries of.
Speaker 1:Charity yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and that's just a good example, they're always out working in the community. Significance of religious life. So, as a religious who lives under poverty, chastity and obedience because the divine will is more important than my own will, because poverty there's a heavenly treasure that is more important than any material good, and that chastity, because the relationship with God is the most significant relationship there is in our life as human persons. Yeah, yeah. So then chapter 7 on the Pilgrim Church, speaks of this eschatological difference or significance of religious life and underlines or emphasizes the temporary nature of what we call the church militant or the church that is present in space and time towards the heavenly Jerusalem, of what we call the church militant or the church that is present in space and time towards the heavenly Jerusalem. So this is the fundamental understanding of this chapter. Chapter 7, is that we are a pilgrim.
Speaker 2:8, on the Blessed Mother, were not part of the original schema or the original draft that was presented to the Council. It was originally presented with 11 chapters and after the first revision it was reduced to four chapters, and then it became five chapters in the second revision, and then chapter 8 on Our Lady existed as a separate schema and was not seen as part of the intervention of Pope St John XXIII, who wanted this chapter on the Pilgrim Church, and it was confirmed by Paul VI. So Cardinal La Rona, the prefect of the Congregation of Rites, in conjunction with a small commission, prepared a text concerning the Catholic doctrine of the veneration of the saints as part of the church's self-explanation in the dogmatic constitution of the church. In other words, cardinal Arona was saying this is very important, that we emphasize the eschatological reality, or the fact that we're headed towards the heavenly Jerusalem, because that makes sense and that explains, then, our veneration of saints, because it wouldn't make sense if we didn't keep that in mind, that we're all headed towards the heavenly Jerusalem and the saints belong to what we used to call the church triumphant, those that have already gone over, crossed over and are now enjoying, to a degree, the presence of God. Right? So let me read this quote from Lerona.
Speaker 2:So the introduction of this theme on the pilgrim church and Our Lady proved to be of major service to the church in her self-presentation, for it called attention to the fact that an essential feature of the Church, without which she cannot be properly described, had not indeed been forgotten, but had not been explored, and that is her eschatological dynamism.
Speaker 2:Not only can and must it be discussed along with her institutional aspect.
Speaker 2:If it is not discussed, this scatological dynamism, if it is not, then the Church will incorrectly be represented even as an institution.
Speaker 2:It brings the veneration of saints out of the isolation in which its significance could not be properly grasped, showing it to be a concrete embodiment of the Church's eschatological nature. In other words, the veneration of saints is a concrete embodiment of the eschatological nature of the Church and, conversely, this discussion of the veneration of saints ensures that the conciliar doctrine on the Church must explicitly treat her vital eschatological aspect. Again, this is something that is very important and, again, this gives us an insight into the veneration of Mary, mary as, again, part of that eschatological reality, that community that we belong to, the communion of saints that we belong to, that is already on the other side of death and is those that are enjoying the peace and the joy and grace of Christ and those, for us as Catholics, those who are still in the process of being purified, like we call the church suffering, those souls that are in purgatory, that are already saved but are undergoing purgation before they enter into the presence of of of God in his Christ Okay.
Speaker 1:You have any questions? No, no, this is good. I think I remember us discussing the part about the eschatological, which you're saying very well, by the way, for being the morning, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, I remember us discussing that in one of the other episodes just how important it is and it's something worth really considering. And it struck me then and it still does that if you don't understand the church's role in heaven, then you can't understand it as an organization or institution as he says. Right, right yeah.
Speaker 2:So then, chapter 8, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God in the mystery of Christ, and the Church.
Speaker 2:Okay, towards the end of the first session of the Second Vatican Council which that session was from October to December of 62, which that session was from October to December of 62, the questions began to come up as to which of the two schemas left to discuss should be discussed first, so the one on the Church or the one on the Blessed Virgin Mary.
Speaker 2:With only a week left before the session ended, it didn't seem worthwhile to dive into the bulky draft, the schema on the church, and the smaller schema or draft on the Blessed Virgin Mary would be less work and probably be easier for a wider acceptance from the bishops in attendance.
Speaker 2:Another reason to consider it, the schema on the Blessed Mother, it, was that some of the Council Fathers wanted to publish it on December 8th, the closing date of the First Session, which is the Feast of the Immaculate Conception. Nevertheless, through the work of the Holy Spirit, the Council Fathers decided to begin the discussion on the Church, leaving more time for a more critical examination of the Mariology, of the Marian draft or the Marian schema. Another point of contention within the Council was on the question of whether the Marian schema of the draft should be a separate document entirely or should be presented within the draft or the schema on the Church. The question was which would be the best catechetical instrument to teach on Mary's relation to the Church, as a separate schema or as a part of the schema on the.
Speaker 2:Church. The Council Fathers voted on October 29, 1963, that the Marian schema should be part of the schema on the Church. Okay, the third point of the controversy surrounding these documents concerned the title that was given to this chapter. The original title of the draft read On the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of God and Mother of Men, a very orthodox and theologically sound title. The title then was altered when it was presented at the second session. The title then was altered when it was presented at the second session and the title was read as On the Blessed Virgin Mary, mother of the Church.
Speaker 2:It may have been that there was a greater desire to connect Mariology and Ecclesiology. That's probably one of the reasons the majority of the conciliar fathers voted against this title, wanting a more sound theological terminology used Again because this is something that was coming out to the world, and so they wanted to make sure that they had their theology sound and understood and did not have a chance to be misunderstood by non-Catholics. Yeah, so then, to refer to Mary as mother outside of her relationship with Jesus is to use the term in an analogous way. By analogy, in order to maintain the truth about Mary, we must remember that she is also the daughter of the Church, since she is its most exalted member who now enjoys the fulfillment of the promise of those on the road to redemption. All of these considerations touch upon the complex reality of the Church, us as bride of Christ and as intimately united to her groom, christ right, and that's part of the complex reality of that relationship.
Speaker 2:So Reformation theology, or Protestant theology, sees the church as the sum of its parts, while Catholic theology sees the church as preceding the individual members, the church as preceding the individual members. The church exists already, right, as a people that is called by God. So, and that's interesting, I think sometimes too for Protestants, is that for us as Catholics, in relationship to Protestants, protestants see the church as the church in space and time. They don't really consider the community beyond death. Right, they don't pray for the dead because they don't believe in that. They pray for you in the space and time of the journey, but they don't pray for the dead or ask mercy for those who have you know, forgiveness for those who have died so that's an interesting difference there as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, nor would they ask the dead to pray for us Right exactly Right, because there's no point, because they're in some other kind of time sphere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, unlike any other of the chapters on the Constitution, on the Church, lumen Gentium, its concluding Marian chapter is divided into five sections, each bringing a subtitle Doubtless, because it turned out to be twice as long as they had planned and there are three introductory articles to explain why this happened. So the introductory articles are articles 52, 53, and 54., it seems like they had the same problem.
Speaker 1:They're like let me tell you a story. Well, hold on.
Speaker 2:I got to tell you a story. To be able to tell you a story, yeah, okay. So article 52. Wishing in his supreme goodness and wisdom to effect the redemption of the world, when the fullness of time came, god sent his Son, born of a woman, that we might receive the adoption of sons, he, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit from the Virgin Mary. This divine mystery of salvation is revealed to us and continued in the church which the Lord established as his body joined to Christ, the head, and in the unity of fellowship with all his saints.
Speaker 2:The faithful must, in first place, reverence the memory of the glorious, ever-virgin Mary, mother of our God and Lord Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:So, then, in Article 52, though I just read, the Christ, the anointed one, the Messiah, was born of a woman, meaning that he is true man and true God. He is true man and true God In Mary. He truly came into our history to deliver us from bondage of the history of damnation and therefore he engrafted his church into history, the remnant, those that he called, those that were elected, his church, which must be as Marian itself as is the mystery of Christ and his work, in other words, referencing Mary here. It means that just the part of Mary being the mother of Jesus, the mother of God, true God and true man, is important for us, because it underscores and underlines the true humanity of Christ. That's one of the reasons why Mary is very important for us, not just a devotion to Mary as mother of Jesus, but the fact that it is through her that the Word has taken on our humanity, and that's why it's very important that we keep Mary within our theology and with our understanding of who Jesus is, as true God and true man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really interesting too, because the church that's an interesting phrase His church, which must be as Mary in itself, as is the mystery of Christ and His work. So Jesus and Mary are similar in the way that they and maybe this is a bit of a stretch, so feel free to correct my heretical-ness- so, they're similar because Mary could fully consent to God's invitation, right Like she wasn't encumbered by sin, to be able to like I don't know, do like you, or I would do and screw it up right.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:Jesus is the same way, even though he's fully man without sin, he could fully consent to his own plan for salvation, I guess you know kind of thing. Or for himself as God, right, he could fully consent to that own plan for salvation, I guess you know kind of thing, or for himself as God right.
Speaker 2:Right, because you have to take into consideration that Mary and Jesus were not under the consequence of original sin, which makes our understanding or response to God's plan kind of muted right or kind of diluted in our response.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so now thinking about the church, that's an interesting kind of thing to think about too, because the church is made up of people who are under the burden of sin, right, but the church has this kind of unique quality in that it can't fail, right? So, similarly to how Mary couldn't fail or Jesus couldn't fail, like the church can't fail even though it's made up of us, yes, so that's an interesting kind of thing to chew on.
Speaker 2:Because again you have to take into consideration also the, the indolence of the Holy Spirit, and then the, the, the guidance of the Holy Spirit and the work of the Holy Spirit. So that's part of that too.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Okay. So article 53, part of the introduction. So article 53 reads the Virgin Mary who, at the message of the angel, received the word of God in her heart and in her body and gave life to the world, is acknowledged and honored as being truly the mother of God and mother of the Redeemer. Truly the mother of God and mother of the Redeemer. Redeemed Mary, redeemed by reason of the merits of her son and united to him by a close and indissoluble tie. She is endowed with the high office and dignity of being the mother of the Son of God, by which account she is also the beloved daughter of the Father and the temple of the Holy Spirit. Because of this gift of sublime grace, she far surpasses all creatures, both in heaven and on earth. At the same time, however, because she belongs to the offspring of Adam, she is one with all those who are to be saved. She is the mother of the members of Christ, having cooperated by charity that the faithful might be born in the church, who are members of that head, of that head, wherefore she is hailed as preeminent and singular member of the Church and as its type, an excellent exemplar in faith and charity. The Catholic Church, taught by the Holy Spirit honors her with filial affection and piety as a most beloved mother. Honors her with filial affection and piety as a most beloved mother.
Speaker 2:So then, the second introductory article calls to mind that Mary was chosen, above all others, to cooperate with God, the Father's plan of salvation, and this choice places her in a position of great honor. But this honor of election does not separate Mary from the rest of the redeemed. Mary is no less redeemed than the rest of us are. She is a member of the church, super, eminently and uniquely its member, indeed the archetype who incomparably bodies forth the nature and position of the church.
Speaker 2:So, going back again, then, to this idea of Mary and the fact that it is through Mary that Christ, or the second person of the Trinity, the Word, takes on our humanity, the fact that Mary is chosen by God is of significance for us, because if God has chosen her, then that means that there's something in Mary that we all, as believers, should recognize and honor and respect God's choice of Mary. And this is something that at times I find confusing. When our separated brethren refuse to honor Mary and go like okay, but if God chose her, how is it that you don't honor God's choice or God's election. Again, not that they all become devoted to Mary, but there has to be some sort of respect for God's choice and it always escapes me why they don't, why they can't or they refuse to give her respect or honor that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard somebody I don't remember who it was, but somebody was saying how when you draw near to Jesus, it should naturally draw you near to his parents too, right, like it's kind of and vice versa too. So it's like if I really draw near to Joseph and Mary, then kind of a consequence of that is I'll draw nearer to their son as well. So just that respect that you're talking about, like there's good things that come from it. So, yeah, it is interesting how she's just a footnote, right, you know, right, right, right, so it's kind of confusing Right.
Speaker 2:Okay, so then the third introductory article, article number 54. Wherefore this holy synod, and expounding the doctrine on the Church in which the Divine Redeemer works, salvation, intends to describe with diligence both the role of the Blessed Virgin in the mystery of the Incarnate Word and the mystical body, us, and the duties of redeemed mankind toward the Mother of God, who is Mother of Christ and Mother of men, particularly of the faithful. It does not, however, have it in mind to give a complete doctrine on Mary, nor does it wish to decide those questions which the work of theologians has not yet fully clarified, those opinions. There's still a developing Mariology, there's still a developing theology on the role of Mary, and the Church is saying we're not, the Council of Fathers are saying we're not giving a definition, a full definition of Mary, because there are still these questions, as the Church continues to reflect on this theology and what we call Mariology and Mary's role in the Church of the Redeemed.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the role of the Blessed Virgin in the economy of salvation. So Mary's role in our salvation history is presented in five steps. The Role of the Blessed Virgin in the Economy of Salvation. So Mary's role in our salvation history is presented in five steps, and the first step that is presented in this document is in reference to Old Testament prophecies. So in Article 55, we're told that there's a gradual preparation for the promised Christ event, Since this is the point of all Scripture, that is, the Christ event. We examine Scripture from the standpoint of the Christ event and part of this Christ event is the seed of Marian devotion. Again, because it is through Mary that the Lord comes into the world and that the Lord receives our humanity, our human nature.
Speaker 2:So article number 55 reads as the sacred scripture of both the Old and the New Testament, as well as ancient tradition, show the role of the mother of the Savior in the economy of salvation in an ever clearer light and draw attention to it. The books of the Old Testament describe the history of salvation by which the coming of Christ into the world was slowly prepared. These earliest documents, as they are read in the church and are understood in the light of a further and full revelation, bring the figure of the woman, mother of the Redeemer, into a gradually clearer light. When it is looked at in this way, she is already prophetically foreshadowed in the promise of victory over the serpent which was given to our first parents after their fall into sin. Likewise, she is the virgin who shall conceive and bear a son whose name will be called Emmanuel. She stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord who confidently hope for and receive salvation from him. With her, the exalted daughter of Zion, and after a long expectation of the promise, the times are fulfilled and the new economy established when the Son of God took a human nature from her that he might in the mysteries of his flesh, free man from sin. So then the document moves into another section, here presented in this New Testament Mary's obedience as it is reflected in the New Testament.
Speaker 2:In this New Testament, mary's obedience as it is reflected in the New Testament, in Article 56, christ is presented as the new Adam and Mary as the new Eve. Mary stands at the head of the redeemed human family, for what she did was to receive, in faith, the mission and coming of the Redeemer, to whose conception the predestined mother had to utter her consent before the Incarnation could take place, so that the gift of the Father might arrive among men. So Article 56 states, the Father of Mercies willed that the Incarnation should be preceded by the acceptance of her, who was predestined to be the mother of his son, so that, just as a woman contributed to death, so also a woman should contribute to life. That is true in outstanding fashion of the mother of Jesus, who gave to the world him who is life itself and who renews all things and who was enriched by God with the gifts which befit such a role. It is no wonder, therefore, that the usage prevailed among the fathers meaning the early church fathers prevailed among the fathers, whereby they called the mother of God, entirely holy and free from all stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature, adorned from the first instant of her conception with the radiance of an entirely unique holiness.
Speaker 2:The Virgin of Nazareth is greeted, on God's command, by an angel messenger as full of grace, and to the heavenly messenger she replies Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be done unto me according to thy word.
Speaker 2:Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam consenting to the divine word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only mediator. Embracing God's salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally, as a handmaid of the Lord, to the person and work of her Son, under him and with him, by the grace of Almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly, therefore, the Holy Fathers see her as used by God, not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St Irenaeus says, she, being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence, not a few of the early fathers gladly assert in their preaching the knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience At the Virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith. Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her the mother of the living. And still more often they say death through Eve, life through Mary.
Speaker 1:And that's a. I like that little article right there because it makes me think of a bunch of things. First of all, st Irenaeus, who said that being obedient became the cause of salvation for herself and the whole human race. He was well alive, writing whatever. It was like 130 AD, so he's really old. This is not like some medieval development. This was understanding from the beginning.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Kind of thing. So that's I like that. They reference that. And then it also makes me think in the previous article too, like talking about the Old Testament fulfillment or how Mary is kind of prefigured and stuff like that, it used to always kind of make me giggle that Jesus would always call his mom woman.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because in my mind I just hear some you know guy going woman, um, but now understanding that it's a, it's like a title, yes, kind of thing, um, and very specifically like eve is woman, right, so he's. The title connects her all the way back to eve and without him making that connection or using that title, it makes that connection a lot more difficult, kind of thing. So I think that's really cool, how she's prefigured in that way. And then when the angel says, hail Mary full of grace, it's also cool, because when I was younger I used to think that he was, he was just like announcing this thing about her or maybe in the moment he was declaring her full of grace so that she could proceed or proceed, you know, with the interaction, proceed, you know with the interaction. But I've learned that the language that's used, it's such where he's declaring this thing that already exists.
Speaker 1:And so when he says you're full of grace, she was full of grace before he met her, not because he met her or because he talked to her. So I just think that's all really, really interesting. It it brings me to the whole one and only mediator. Oh, I know a lot of people get upset about mary being like mediatrix or whatever. Right, yes, could you, could you maybe unpack it a little bit here, because I know like it makes sense in the context of this article, like I understand she is that mediator between god and man in that moment. So maybe why has she continued to be made mediator when we have Jesus now?
Speaker 2:Well, there is a segment within the church that like to emphasize this title right.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it always kind of it does irk me, it does kind of chafe me because, like you don't understand. I mean you think you're being a defender of Mary or whatever. The honor of Mary, and no one is violating the honor of our Blessed Mothers, don't worry about that, because there is only one mediator and that is Jesus Christ. Now if Mary, within God's design, has a part in that mediatorship or shares in that mediating role of Jesus, then that's theologically sound, because Jesus has taken on our humanity and because part of the design is that all of us are called to participate in the salvation and redemption not only of ourselves but in the rest of the world. There is a degree of mediatorship that we all have, but it all comes from the one mediator.
Speaker 2:I'm not a mediator between anyone else and Jesus or anyone else and God. That's Jesus himself. There's only one mediator, jesus. And so if there's anything that I'm doing, I am doing it because of the role of Jesus as mediator, and the same thing applies to Mary. Mary, because of her acceptance of the Word and because of being prepared to respond to the Word openly or God's design right, then she then becomes part of that mediatorship through giving Jesus her humanity, but also in participating in the role of redemption, her own salvation and the salvation of those around her, by leading I would say leading a life of discipleship.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and to be clear, this article, it says Mary became the mother of Jesus, who is, I'm adding, the one and only mediator, right, and so this is a classic example of everything about Mary points to Jesus. Her role of mediation points to Jesus. Yes, her role of mediation points to Jesus, because he's the mediator. Your role, my role of mediation, points to Jesus. The church, yes, the church's role of mediation in the world points to Jesus.
Speaker 2:It all comes from the one source, the one mediator, and so sometimes when people want to, you know, talk about maria's mediatrix and redemptrix, I'm going. Okay, fine, I don't have a problem with that at all, as long as you understand what you're saying, and sometimes they don't yeah, well, and it's.
Speaker 1:It's easy for us to all. We just get so excited about the things that we love, right, but this don't go wandering off into left field kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you know again, and sometimes we catholics are very guilty of over emphasizing the role of mary, which then turns off other christians because they go like you're a bunch of mary worshipers. You're like, yeah, there's a couple of mary worshipers up in the catholic church there, but there's, you know, it's a lot of is out of love and devotion and wanting to be more Catholic, but there's a lack of catechesis there, right, and so it's a matter of catechizing that they understand what it is exactly that the church teaches that the bishops decided to put to include her in this with the church kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Because it frames it very nicely, going all the way back to that quote from the beginning, that if we don't understand the dynamism, like we won't understand the church's role, Right. So we have to properly understand all of it together to see so we don't wander off.
Speaker 2:Right and part of the whole eschatological thing is that Mary is part of you know, that church that is already with Christ, and she is the first of the us, our sister, who is enjoying that, and in her we ourselves have that promise that we're working towards achieving ourselves. So again, it points again to the eschaton that it is only in the end, when we all will be able to see God face-to-face and be whatever it is that God wants us to be. When we see him face-to-face, we'll be as it is that God wants us to be. When we see him face to face, we'll be as he is. But again, it points to the whole fact that Mary's role is also part of the eschaton. It's not about Mary in the past, it's about Mary where she is now as faithful disciple sitting with the Lord, enjoying the glory of the Lord, who is the Lord of lords and king of kings and only mediator and the only source of salvation. And so it is in association with who Jesus is that Mary's relevance and importance is seen and appreciated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, amen, amen, amen. Well, I think this is a good place to take a break and we can finish this up in a subsequent episode. Yes, All right, Father. Thank you for playing. Thank you. I missed you. Yeah, I missed you too. I missed doing this. This is so much fun and it's been too long. I don't know how soon we'll get the next one out.
Speaker 2:I think we should probably wait. We'll see. We've got enough of these recorded, yeah.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, we might release this one and then kind of for everyone ask for your patience, yeah, as we continue. Still got a lot going on. Yeah, we got to get kind of reorganized here moving forward. So thanks for joining us, thanks for your prayers, father, I love you, love you and everybody. We'll see you next time. Bye, ms Rita, bye, bye.
