My Friend the Friar
A podcast where we learn about our faith and share what it takes to live a Catholic Christian life through conversations and contemplations with my friend the friar, a Discalced Carmelite Priest.
My Friend the Friar
The Blessed Virgin: Mother, Model, and Mediator (Season 3 Episode 39)
Father Stephen and John dive deep into Chapter 8 of Lumen Gentium, exploring Mary's unique role in salvation history and addressing common misconceptions about Catholic Marian devotion.
• Mary's maternal role toward humanity doesn't diminish Christ's unique mediation but shows its power
• All Mary's influence originates from divine pleasure, not necessity, and depends entirely on Christ
• Mary is intimately united with the Church as both an exemplar and mother in the order of grace
• The Council distinguishes between veneration of Mary and worship of God
• True Marian devotion leads to imitating her virtues rather than mere emotional attachment
• Mary's Assumption serves as a sign of hope pointing to Christ's victory for all Christians
• The document expresses hope for unity with separated brethren in honoring the Mother of God
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I'm Ada Lee and you're listening to my Friend's Friar.
Speaker 2:Good morning John, Good morning Father. It's been a long time, I know.
Speaker 1:I keep laughing because it's I'm thinking it's like trying to have a conversation. I keep laughing because I'm thinking it's like trying to have a conversation. It's almost like when people would have conversations via written letter, handwritten letter, back and forth. That's what this is like we're picking up something that we last talked about like two, three months ago, kind of thing. At this point, yeah, Like February, was it?
Speaker 1:February yeah, it was Valentine's Day is when we released the last one, so it was just before Valentine's Day when we talked Goodness Well, welcome to the podcast and thanks for joining me and my friend, the friar, father Stephen Sanchez, discalced Carmelite Priesthood. We don't know where we are anymore. We actually do. It's like 30 minutes now trying to figure out where we were in this conversation, so we're pretty sure we know where we're picking back up. Yes, yeah, and thank you for your prayers and everybody who's listening. Thank you all for the prayers for mom and everything, and I think her beautiful or her beautiful, her she's beautiful. Her funeral it was beautiful. It was really neat to.
Speaker 1:It was the mass was at the parish where I grew up, and St Paul down in Corpus Christi, texas, and or St Paul the apostle, and it's the same parish where my dad's funeral mass was, and so it's. It was just a really beautiful moment to get to kind of goodness, I guess 20 years or so after since my dad passed away for for my mom and so, uh, yeah, 24 years, and so just to kind of close that loop, and you know she's in the uh, arms of Jesus and she gets to pray. Have hope, get to that. She's with dad again and, um, all everything is good and glorious up in heaven and it's just. It was a beautiful experience. So I think the she opened our last two episodes because that was something she really wanted to do. She wanted to get better so she could be on the podcast. So I think I'm going to. I think I said I was going to let her open all these for Mary, so I'll probably let her do the opening for this one too. It's kind of like a hurrah.
Speaker 2:And now she has a better understanding of Mary than any of us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she's probably going up there just shaking her head like, oh you boys, You're close, but All right. The Blessed Virgin and the Church. This is point five of Lumen Gentium, chapter eight. Yes.
Speaker 2:We had begun speaking on the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the economy of salvation, and the document gives us five points. And the first point was on the Old Testament prophecies. The second point was on the New Testament and Mary's obedience. Then the third point was Mary's receptive faith. And the fourth point was Mary's connection to Christ brings her to be intimately connected with the church. And then the fifth point the church sees herself in Mary's assumption, that assumption being the effect of redemption.
Speaker 2:So we begin then Roman numeral three in Lumen Gentium, chapter eight, the Blessed Virgin and the church. So number 60 of Lumen Gentium, number 60 of Lumen Gentium. I'm watching John walk on the ceiling here, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:Sorry, Rosie wanted out of the room because she was sleeping in her little dog bed, so I go let her out.
Speaker 2:Okay. So number 60. There is but one mediator, as we know from the words of the Apostle, for there is one God and one mediator of God in men, the man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself as redemption for all. The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows his power. I just want to pause there, and that's because a lot of times we have people who again separated brethren, who speak about there's only one Redeemer, one Savior, yes, and we're like, yes, there is, we're 1,000% in agreement with that right. So Mary's role is within that mediatorship of Christ, right? So anyway, we'll talk about that in a minute.
Speaker 2:Continuing on number 60, for all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates not from some inner necessity but from a divine pleasure. This means that Christ has chosen Mary to be part of this economy, right? Not he is the only mediator, but somehow it is Christ's pleasure that he incorporates members of the church, Mary being a member of the church in that same design plan of redemption. So we'll talk about that a little bit further on. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.
Speaker 2:Okay here, so because somehow in God's plan, in the way, Christ is the head and Christ is the source.
Speaker 2:He is the only truth, he is the only mediator, he is the only Savior and in honoring his mother that gave him his sacred humanity, that brings him into human history and is part of this whole divine plan of redemption, then Mary, as part of the church, as a member of the church, as a believer, as the first redeemed, then making her part of this is a way in which the faithful, us, the church, there's an immediate union of the faithful with Christ.
Speaker 2:So in Mary's close work with Christ, that is a sign and a symbol of what all of us as church should be and looks forward to in that union with Christ. It's almost like a prophetic sign of where we are going as church, of what we're meant to be as church we're meant to be. These co-operators, these, as Paul would say, the ambassadors of this kingdom, ambassadors of Christ, were meant to work very closely together and in Mary, we have already in reality not our reality, but in the future reality of the church. As we work towards that celestial truth, that celestial truth, the faithful are already working in close union, proximity with Christ in this design of redemption. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I love talking about Mary with you because, as a Carmelite, I'm talking about Mary with you, because, as a Carmelite, you have a little extra love for Mary, kind of thing. Yeah, but your Mariology is well-formed as a Carmelite as well. Right, because everything is based on Jesus and not, as I would probably wager, a lot of Catholics around the world. It's not well formed in us, and so there's a tendency towards I don't want to say abuse, but we're going about it the wrong way, kind of thing. Yeah, this is a lack of catechesis. Yeah, this is a lack of catechesis.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so to me I love this because all of it makes sense. If it gives God joy that you and I sit around and talk about godly things, right, and either we ourselves and or someone else benefits from those kinds of conversations. If that gives him joy, like how much more joy would it give? And that as, as you said, like the first saved kind of thing, how he chose her and saved her, how much more, I guess, joy would her perfect obedience give him?
Speaker 1:Well, and I don't know, maybe my broken obedience gives him just as much joy, you know, because he's like oh, he's trying, you know.
Speaker 2:Bless his heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I do think it's. I think catechesis on Mary is something that we're all, when I say we, like the laity of the world, are probably missing a lot of. So I don't know, I like it. This all makes sense, to me at least. Probably because I talked to you, but carry on, good sir, okay.
Speaker 2:So then that was number 60. Now we go to 61, number 61 of Lumen Gentium, chapter 8,. Predestined from eternity by that decree of divine providence which determined the incarnation of the Word to be the Mother of God, the Blessed Virgin was on this earth the Virgin Mother of the Redeemer and above all others and, in a singular way, the generous associate and humble handmaid of the Lord. She conceived, brought forth and nourished Christ. She presented him to the Father in the temple and was united with him by compassion as he died on the cross. In this singular way, she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope and burning charity in the work of the Savior, in giving back supernatural life to souls. Wherefore she is our mother in the order of grace. Okay, so, okay.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of realities, superimposed layers and realities that we have to be aware of and remind ourselves of. So Mary is the first of the redeemed. Mary is our sister because she's a creature right, but here the council father says but you have to remember that because she gave our humanity to the Word and by giving birth to the Word, true God and true man, then that in the order of grace, then she is also our mother because she is the mother of Christ, who is the source of all grace, the source of all redemption. So it's important that we not separate Mary from Christ and his unique and only mediatorship unique and only mediatorship, right. And sometimes because of a lack of catechesis, because people sometimes speak out of emotion instead of out of understanding, sometimes that's where we can get caught up and we give our separated brethren conniptions.
Speaker 1:And rightly so.
Speaker 2:And rightly so Because sometimes we within Catholic, within the Catholic world, there is Catholic language and we understand the language. But when you speak to somebody outside of the Catholic world using Catholic language, you confuse them because they don't understand what it is that you're referring to or what your reference points are Right. So that's why it's important that we always make that distinction.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it's like. It's like translating languages on the fly too, right. So it's because you have all this theological language like you're saying. So you're like, how do I say this in layman's terms? And then, especially if it's something you're excited, it's so easy to misspeak. That's really. It is one of the scariest things about doing a podcast too is like if you were going to sit down and write a book, you could take as long as you need to make sure that what you're saying is correct, but when you're just chatting with someone like you mess up all the time.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, you know, and we've done it, that's recorded.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah. And then if it's recorded, then somebody's like oh, look what the Catholics say. You know, and it's like sorry, man, I wasn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oops, we're just talking about the faith. So let me go on to number 62. So let me go on to number 62. Yep, and this is 60, 61, 62. So that's the sort of outlining Mary's role in the church and how we're trying to get to the place where the assumption we speak about the assumption Mary's body and soul assumed into heaven, and how that is the effect of redemption and how that, basically, is a promise of our own resurrected body. Right, so that's what we're going to get to. So then, number 62 of chapter 8. The maternity of Mary, in the order of grace, began with the consent which she gave in faith at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, and lasts until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. So I kind of kind of pause there, okay, so one of the things, the um, we have to again multiple realities, many things are going on at once.
Speaker 2:So, Mary, still now, and until all the elect are gathered at the last day, right the fulfillment. She continues then to cooperate with Christ in his work of redemption in the world, right, and up until the moment that all of the elect are gathered, right. So this is her. And so why is this true? It makes sense because if someone is redeemed, and is truly redeemed using a Calvin and Hobbes word, transmogrified, truly transmogrified in Christ, then your desire is not about yourself. Your desire becomes other-centered, as Christ was other-centered, and so Mary's other-centeredness is about our redemption. She's concerned for our redemption, those of us that are still on the journey right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And so—.
Speaker 1:And wouldn't this be true for you and I?
Speaker 2:when we pass away.
Speaker 1:Yes, right, we would—in our beatific vision, we would be not concerned about ourselves. We'd be praying for everyone else, everybody else.
Speaker 2:That's it, because we want everyone—the will of the Father is that all be saved, and so that is the will that drives this continual missionary kind of desire. So continuing on in number 62. Taken up to heaven, she did not lay aside this salvific duty but, by her constant intercession, continued to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her son who still journey on earth, surrounded by dangers and cultics, until they are led into the happiness of their true home. Therefore, the Blessed Virgin is invoked by the Church under the titles of Advocate, auxiliatrix, adjuxtrix and Mediatrix.
Speaker 2:This, however, is to be so understood that it neither takes away from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficaciousness of Christ, the one mediator, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, okay, okay. So when you ask somebody to pray for you, right? You're not asking them to take the place of Jesus. You're not asking them to take the place of Jesus, you're asking them to mediate as well. That with all the other believers, you ask God's mercy or God's mediation in whatever situation we find ourselves. When you ask for help, again to come before God and plead before the throne, so an advocate as well, right. So all those things we can say of the believers on our journey, right, but that does not in any way take away the efficaciousness and the only mediatorship of Jesus Christ, right. So the same thing with Mary.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, continuing on to number 62.
Speaker 2:I think this is important, for no creature could ever be counted as equal with the incarnate word and redeemer. That is a very important statement that I wish Catholics would remember. Just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways by the ministers and by the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is really communicated in different ways to his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude, but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source. The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary. It knows it through unfailing experience of it and commends it to the hearts of the faithful so that, encouraged by this maternal help, they may the more intimately adhere to the mediator and redeemer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, those last two sentences are probably sentences a lot of non-Catholic Christians have never heard spoken by the Catholic Church. This is assumed that you know this. It's assumed that you're aware of this. It's assumed that you've been catechized in this. And what happens is when it gets translated into popular piety. The popular piety then can be misleading to those who are not of the culture within the Catholic culture, and even within the Catholic culture they're not educated. Then again there's a misunderstanding of exactly what is what's going on right. For example, we have the many images of Mary. Right you have Our Lady of Guadalupe, our Lady of Lourdes, our Lady of Fatima. We have Our Lady of Prompt Sucker.
Speaker 2:We have Our Lady of Perpetual Help. Okay, like, isn't it all the same person? Yes, it is the same person, but these are different facets or different ways of experiencing Mary's sisterly maternity right. And also you can say it is also a reflection of Christ's care for us, or even God, the Father's care for us through this creature right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and even like it makes me think with ourselves too. We're all multifaceted, right. I'm a son, I'm a husband, I'm a brother, I'm a father, right? So there's all these different aspects, and I can care for you in a brotherly way. I can care for you in a fatherly way, right?
Speaker 1:And so why would it be any different again with Mary, right? If every one of these encounters with her, like every one of these encounters with her, should point to, like you're saying, an aspect of the father's love that we get to just experience through that encounter with her?
Speaker 2:Right, and it's the same thing with you.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I don't know why it is that people get emotional when we talk about stuff like that. When we talk about the role of Mary, right, whether it's a separated brethren or Catholics or even those that are closer to Catholic tradition, sometimes it becomes more of an emotional reaction instead of really actually sitting down and thinking about it, thinking it out theologically, right? So what is it that we're saying, right? So yeah, and even you know, I've heard many priests say stuff like oh my God, please don't.
Speaker 1:I remember the story about was it some retreat or something you gave and you said that the, the prayer should be made in such a way, and then the priest came in and or maybe even a bishop or something came in and said it like the wrong way. Right after yes, yeah, yes, yes uh oh, womp, womp exactly like, okay, okay so anyway, yeah, but words, words are hard, right, and again, wait, that's. We have to be charitable with one another to oh yeah, but I think again it goes back.
Speaker 2:try to understand. It goes back to the whole idea of many times there's an emotional element to this. All right, and of course, yeah, especially for us. You're like you know, you're gonna start dissing my mom, like, of course I'm going to bow up on you, like what, say that again, yeah, and so that's what happens, right, and so it's like okay, but you don't have a proper understanding and sometimes, again, as I said, sometimes it's our own fault for not catechizing our own people and helping them to understand exactly the role of Mary in the church.
Speaker 2:But, anyway, the council fathers are trying really hard here. So that's why I wanted to get to, that's why we started this, to talk about Mary, about chapter 8. But then we decided to do more to be able to understand the context to be able to understand chapter eight of lumigensium yeah, and it's like, um, have you ever seen shrek? Uh, the movie, the first one with like a thousand, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:So the only thing I can really remember about it is when the donkey is like, or shrek is saying there's layers like an onion and you peel back the layers and there's more and more layers, right, and the donkeys, what does he say? He's like not everybody likes onions, or whatever. How about parfaits? So this is our, our marion parfait. There you go is what all this is about okay, so continuing on, so, okay.
Speaker 2:So the first three articles of this section number 60, 61, 62, point out the singular uniqueness of Christ as the only mediator Again, only mediator but also helps us to see Mary's relationship to Christ's unique role as mediator and how this role could properly be understood as mediatrix, again, right, how Mary uniquely enjoys a particular relationship with the rest of the faithful and with Christ, the head. Because of her uniqueness, she is creature, but also she is the one through whom the Word took on our humanity. And because of her Immaculate Conception, because she was redeemed first, and because of her Immaculate Conception, then, her ability to respond fully to God is unique to creation. Okay, so that's important to understand. Okay, so continuing on then, in terms of Mary as Mediatrix. The grace that a redeemed person receives from Christ becomes in him, in turn, a source of salvation for his fellows. Now, this is eminently and archetypically true of Mary, so that she, who originally received into herself the source of all life, is thereby a spiritual mother to all other members of the church.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a quote from the role of the Blessed Virgin Semmelroth the author.
Speaker 2:Okay, so. So there's two elements of Mary's mediation. One, the historical, objective, existential connection with Christ and his work of redemption, and two, mary from her place, outside of space and time now, since her assumption continues with a mother's love to care for and intercede for those on the road to redemption. Okay, and going back to this idea of mediatrix, this is applicable to Mary in a very unique way and we could also, we could say in a concentrated way, just as it could be said of you and I you are a mediator because you are part of the church and in your life and in your acts of virtue and in your striving for holiness, it is for the church and so, in a way, you are cooperating with Christ's singular mediatorship. So you, in a way, are a co-mediator, right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like then it's saying is it 2 Peter? We're a priestly people. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, and so this is something that needs to be understood to the role of Mary, her priestly function. Right, because this is part of who Christ is.
Speaker 1:And so again.
Speaker 2:Hopefully this is laying some sort of understanding. We're probably nerding out here. People are falling asleep. Get to the point, dude. This is the point. So now we get to articles 63, 64, and 65. We're almost well I shouldn't say we're almost done.
Speaker 2:We've got a ways to go yet we'll get there, though we'll get there so in Numbers 63 to 65, mary is presented as the archetype of the church, or think of it as a prophetic image, or think of it as an icon right of the church and as an anti-type of the first Eve.
Speaker 1:So we have.
Speaker 2:Eve. Then you have the type right, which is okay. You have the mother of humanity right, and so this is where a lot of the early church fathers started comparing Mary and Eve. So Mary is the new Eve. Eve failed in her disobedience, Mary conquers through her obedience. And there's a lot of these commentators. The early church fathers began looking at this and it's called typology, but that's for another podcast.
Speaker 2:Okay, so the church is born of the side of the crucified Savior, as Eve was taken from the side of Adam. That's one of the typologies. The type is that Jesus on the cross is like the Adam, the new Adam, and the new Adam sleeps in death and in the sleep of death. When the soldier pierces the side of Jesus, the church comes forth the flowing of the blood and the water, which is the signs and symbols of the Eucharist and baptism. So blood and water flows out. So blood and water flows out. So this is the church being born from the side of the Adam, the new Adam that is asleep on the cross of the church. She represents the church. So we can say that Mary, then, is also born from the side of Jesus, even though she gave birth to Jesus, right? That's where all these different layers start coming together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, parfait, yeah. So we'll get to this in a minute. So Article 63, which we'll read in just a second, presents Mary as the archetype, then Number 64 presents the Church as an antitype of Eve, and then Article 65 examines the embodiment of the antitype in the gathering of the members of the Church, us. So now 63. By reason of the gift and role of divine maternity, by which she is united with her son, the Redeemer, and with his singular graces and functions, the Blessed Virgin is also intimately united with the Church. As St Ambrose taught, the Mother of God is a type of the Church in the order of faith, charity and perfect union with Christ. For in the mystery of the Church, which is itself rightly called Mother and Virgin, the Blessed Virgin stands out in eminent and singular fashion as exemplar both of virgin and mother. Okay, so church is called virgin and mother, why? Because, as people are baptized, the church is mothering these people, right? And she's called virgin because it is a virgin birth in the spiritual realm, right? So when someone is baptized at the baptismal font, the church is giving birth to a new member, and she is a virgin in giving forth this spiritual child, right? So that's where some of this is going by her belief and obedience. Not knowing man but overshadowed by the Holy Spirit as the new eve, she brought forth on earth the very Son of the Father, showing an undefiled faith not in the word of the ancient serpent but in that of God's messenger. The Son whom she brought forth is he whom God placed as the firstborn among many brethren, namely the faithful, in whose birth and education she cooperates with a maternal love.
Speaker 2:Okay, so now 64 as the antitype of Eve. Excuse me allergies, excuse me, excuse me Allergies. The church, indeed, contemplating her hidden sanctity, imitating her charity and faithfully fulfilling the Father's will, by receiving the word of God in faith, becomes herself a mother. The Church, by her preaching, she brings forth to a new and immortal life the sons who are born to her in baptism, conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of God. She herself is a virgin who keeps the faith given to her by her spouse, whole and entire. Imitating the mother of her Lord and by the power of the Holy Spirit, she keeps, with virginal purity and entire faith, a firm hope and a sincere charity. Now, one of the layers of understanding of faith virginity, excuse me. And in the Western world we tend to connect virginity to genitality right and to whether someone's had sexual intercourse or not.
Speaker 2:One of the layers of virginity is not about sexual purity, it is about fidelity, the faithfulness right. It is about fidelity, the faithfulness right. So here the church is saying her virginal, or her commitment in faith, her fidelity to her Lord is what makes her virginal. And it is through this virginal commitment, fidelity to the Lord, it is in this fidelity to the Lord that she gives birth to her children conceived by the Holy Spirit. Okay, does that make sense?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting. I've never heard or thought of it like that. Yeah, that's interesting. Okay, but like that? Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Okay, and also for us as contemplatives. Part of the reason for virginity is to be able to enter into contemplation, which is really interesting. It's about, it goes back to the fidelity to the word, right, and so that's what the vow of chastity is about fidelity to the word. It's not about just celibacy and genitality, him in that faithful, priestly, ministerial, prophetic stance.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's really interesting because it kind of makes me think of how many people a little tangent here, but I think this is really something worth considering is a lot of people basically, like fornication is rampant around the world.
Speaker 1:Right, it's part of our human brokenness, and so you have people who are not married, who engage in sexual behaviors and what that does, and they may even have the intention of being married someday. Right, oh, I love you, I love you, like, let's get married, whatever. But it obscures a lot of things. You get lost in this behavior, in this behavior, and if you weren't doing X, y or Z, you might have a more clear frame of mind to be able to go oh, this is not really that good of a relationship, or we're not going in the right direction, like in holiness for one another kind of thing, right, because we're just distracted, right, and so just thinking not impure, as in like you were saying, it's more about that fidelity and in that fidelity is a certain kind of purity. Where there's less clutter, I can focus better, right, no, it's interesting. Okay, it's interesting Okay okay, it's interesting.
Speaker 2:Okay, so then we get to article 65, which is again examines the embodiment of the antitype in the gathering of the members of the church in us. Okay, so, number 65. But while in the most holy virgin, the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she is without spot or wrinkle. Okay, we need to come back to that. The followers of Christ still strive to increase in holiness by conquering sin. Okay, so let me go back to the first sentence. Let me go back to the first sentence. While in the Most Holy Virgin, the Church has already reached that perfection. Okay, the Church claims that we, the Council Fathers, continue to preach this, and this goes back a long ways that the Church is indefectibly holy. Why? Because it is founded upon Jesus Christ, who is indefectibly holy, right In Mary as the first of the redeemed right, the first creature right that is enjoying this, and Mary as the icon or as the prophetic sign or symbol of the redeemed, that there is already this perfection that Mary is enjoying as a member of the church and thereby we share in that to some degree, but Mary already is sharing this. So this goes back to the whole tension of the already and the not yet. Like already, christ has already conquered, yes, but it's not been definitively revealed yet, right until the Lord comes in glory, right? So this is part of that whole theological idea, right? So I just wanted to get that clear.
Speaker 2:And so continue on with number 65. And so they, the church, turn their eyes to Mary, who shines forth to the whole community of the elect us as the model of virtues we were just talking about virtues Piously meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word, made man the Church, us with reverence, enters more intimately into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her spouse, right? So more and more to what we're called to be, to be that virginal fidelity, commitment to the Word. For Mary who, since her entry into salvation history, unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith, as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful us to her son and his sacrifice and to the love of the Father, seeking after the glory of Christ. The church becomes more like her exalted type, mary, as this type, and continually progresses in faith, hope and charity, seeking and doing the will of God in all things. That's us, right. We want to be more like Mary, that perfect response to God's word. Hence the Church, us in her apostolic work, also justly looks to her.
Speaker 2:Mary, who conceived of the Holy Spirit, brought forth Christ, who was born of the Virgin, that through the Church, he Christ may be born and may increase in the hearts of the faithful. Also, the Virgin in her own life lived an example of that maternal love by which it behooves that all should be animated who cooperate in the apostolic mission of the church for the regeneration of man. So again, going back to this whole idea of fidelity, contemplation, virginity, right, so as we are called to meditate, reflect and pray with the Word, whether it's the written Word or if it's the living Word which the written word is based upon that within ourselves, then we bring forth, we give birth to Christ in us, conversion, whatever you want to call it right, giving ourselves to the Lord. Then that we ourselves then become more like Mary in bringing forth Christ into the world in ourselves, just as Mary brought Christ into the world in human flesh. Right.
Speaker 2:So, that's kind of sort of those images and icons and signs and symbols of what's going on there. That's what we're called to be as the embodiment of that antitype. Okay, shall we go on.
Speaker 1:Let's do it, let's finish. Do you have time?
Speaker 2:Probably another 15 minutes maybe. Let's see. Let's see what we can do, okay. Roman numeral four of chapter eight the cult of the blessed virgin in the church. Now, when we say cult, yeah, we don't mean brainwashed zombies right.
Speaker 2:By cult we mean veneration, right. It goes from the Latin word cultus, which is about the veneration right, so it's really a better way to say this would be the veneration of the Blessed Virgin in the church. So, number 66, there's a special veneration respect given to Mary within the church and it's based upon her exaltation by God's election and grace to participate in Jesus Christ's role as Redeemer. So why do we venerate Mary? We venerate Mary because God chose her. And if God chose her, then there must be something about Mary that I need to look at and examine and ask myself about. Because God has chosen Mary to be the mother of his son, to give him flesh, to come into the world to redeem us, right? So it's really about venerating God's election of this vehicle, right? That's where this is based. So, number 66. Placed by the grace of God as God's mother, meaning Jesus Christ next to her son, and exalted above all angels and men, mary intervened in the mysteries of Christ and is justly honored by a special cult veneration in the church.
Speaker 2:Clearly, from earliest times, the Blessed Virgin is honored under the title of Mother of God, under whose protection the faithful took refuge in all their dangers and necessities. Hence, after the Synod of Ephesus, the cult of the people of God toward Mary wonderfully increased in veneration and love, in invocation and imitation. According to her own prophetic words, all generations shall call me blessed, because he that is mighty has done great things to me. This cult, as it always existed, although it is altogether singular, differs essentially from the cult of adoration which is offered to the incarnate word, differs essentially from the cult of adoration which is offered to the incarnate Word as well as to the Father and the Holy Spirit. So they're trying to point out the difference between worship, which is the cult of adoration, worship and veneration.
Speaker 2:So we venerate Mary, we venerate saints, but we worship God. The various forms of piety toward the mother of God which the church, within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine, according to the conditions of time and place and the nature and ingenuity of the faithful, has approved, bring it about that, while the mother is honored, the son, through whom all things have their being and in whom it has pleased the father that all fullness should dwell, is rightly known, loved and glorified, and that all his commands are observed. In other words, the purpose of veneration of Mary is to attract people to a more Christian life, a more Christian life, seeing in Mary the vehicle that is obedient, the vehicle that God has chosen, and her participation in Christ's ministry earthly ministry. That should attract us also, then, to Christ's ministry itself, in other words, imitating that ministry of Christ himself in the virtuous life that he exemplified for us right.
Speaker 2:So going back a little bit to the whole idea of honoring Mary under the title of Mother of God, honoring Mary under the title of Mother of God. The Council of Ephesus was not about Mary, even though a lot of Catholics think it is. The Council of Ephesus was not about Mary. The Council of Ephesus was about who Christ was. Was Jesus true God and true man? And so the whole idea of the Christophokos and Theotokos right. Is Mary the Christ-bearer or is Mary the God-bearer? And so the whole argument was like you shouldn't separate Jesus from his Godhood because he is true God and true man. So if Jesus is true God and true man, then you can say, in a way, that Mary is the mother of God. She's not the mother of God, the father of God, the Holy Spirit, but she gave humanity to the son, and so therefore, who is true God, true man? Therefore, we can say that Mary is mother of God. So that's where that comes from.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Excuse me. So then we get to number 67, and here's where the council fathers encourage a true devotion to the Blessed Virgin and an avoidance of extremes. Okay, true devotion, avoidance of extremes. Okay, number 67. This most holy synod deliberately teaches this Catholic doctrine and at the same time admonishes all the sons and daughters of the church that the cult, especially the liturgical cult, of the Blessed Virgin, be generously fostered and the practices and exercises of piety recommended by the Magisterium, the Rosary right of the Church toward her in the course of centuries, be made of great moment and those decrees which have been given in the early days regarding the cult of images of Christ, the Blessed Virgin and the saints be religiously observed.
Speaker 2:But it exhorts theologians and preachers of the divine word to abstain zealously both from all gross exaggerations as well as from petty narrow-mindedness in considering the singular dignity of the Mother of God. Following the study of Sacred Scripture, the Holy Fathers, the Doctors and Liturgy of the Church, and under the guidance of the Church's Magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Church and, under the guidance of the Church's magisterium, let them rightly illustrate the duties and privileges of the Blessed Virgin, which always look to Christ, the source of all truth, sanctity and piety. Let them assiduously keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the church. Let the faithful remember, moreover, that true devotion consists neither in sterile or transitory affection, nor in a certain vain credulity, but proceeds from true faith by which we are led to know the excellence of the mother of God and we are moved to filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's another one of those couple lines right there towards the end. It's like I guess none of us have heard that before, you know, because it's like won't, won't, we missed that one.
Speaker 2:And this is what I'm always preaching about, especially as a Marian order Like, okay, we have a devotion to Our Lady of Mount Carmel, yes, but it's not about a devotion to Our Lady of Mount Carmel. A true devotion to Our Lady of Mount Carmel is to imitate the virtues that that represents, and for Carmelites that would be the virtue of prayer, right, contemplative prayer that's under the title of Our Lady of Mount Carmel.
Speaker 1:So anyway, yes, yeah, I love it. Keep away from whatever, either by word or deed, could lead separated brethren or any other into error regarding the true doctrine of the church. It's like I'm going to make a t-shirt that says that, because it's like everybody needs to just be reminded. I think yes, very gently, yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, yes, yes, Okay, almost there. Roman numeral five Mary, the sign of created hope and solace to the wandering people of God. So this is then number 68 and 69, which is the last part. So non-Catholic Christians take offense at this article for two reasons it seems to confirm a triumphalism of which they accuse the Church, and two, that they have replaced Christ as the sure sign with Mary, that we replaced Christ with Mary. So that's why non-Catholic Christians take offense at these two articles. But again, if they don't understand Catholic language, catholic theology, the Catholic ambience, it's easy to misunderstand what people are talking about. So again, context. So, like I said earlier, if you want to understand the Second Vatican Council documents, you need to read them all. They're supposed to be read in the context of everything else. So anyway, our response then to these offenses of non-Catholic Christians is that our contemplation of Mary assumed into heaven reminds us that our earthly existence is provisional and it's not triumphant of the Catholic Church in the world. It is about reminding ourselves that Christ is victorious and that Mary is the sign of this victory of Christ for humanity.
Speaker 2:Two Mary is the sure sign of the result of answering the bridal call that is ours as Christ's bride so 68 says. The bridal call that is ours as Christ's bride so 68 says, in the interim between now and the second, coming as the mother of Jesus, glorified in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. So too does she shine forth on earth until the day. That is part of that sign, right, she is a prophetic sign. It is not as the triumph of the church, it's the triumph of Christ. That is what we're pointing to, right. It's in the last number, the last, article 69. The pain of the reality of the separated brethren and a prayer for unity.
Speaker 2:It gives great joy and comfort to this holy and general synod that even among the separated brethren there are some who give due honor to the mother of our Lord and Savior, especially among the Orientals, meaning the Eastern churches, who, with devout mind and fervent impulse, give honor to the mother of God, ever virgin.
Speaker 2:The entire body of the faithful pours forth instant supplications to the Mother of God and Mother of Men. That she, who aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers in the Cynical, may now, exalted as she is. Above all, the angels and saints intercede before her Son in the fellowship of all the saints, until all families of people, whether they are honored with the title of Christian or whether they still do not know the Savior, may be happily gathered together in peace and harmony into one people of God, for the glory of the most holy and undivided Trinity. Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic constitution have met with the approval of the council fathers and we, by the apostolic power given us by Christ, together with the venerable fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it, and command that what has thus been decided in the council be promulgated for the glory of God Given in Rome at St Peter's on November 21st 1964. Fini.
Speaker 1:The end man. God is good. Yes, all the time. Yeah, I'm glad that we've taken the time to do this. Regardless of how much time it's taken us to do this, I wonder if maybe someday I'm going to do all of our multi-parters like this, I'm going to do like a super cut and just mush them all together into one giant episode so people don't have to go searching for them and stuff like that. But yeah, this is so good. And I think you know, like we keep saying there's a lot of or we've said in the past, there's a lot of I don't know, try not to be too broad brushstroke-y but a lot of haters of Vatican II out there who probably haven't read the whole thing in context. No of course not.
Speaker 2:They just hear what other people tell them and they don't go to the source.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but every time we sit down and talk about it, just like this, it's beautiful and I think there's just so much to sit and reflect on and there's a lot you could probably learn from these, looking at Vatican II and going all the way back to some early synod or council and seeing how they are related and things like that. But, yeah, this has been so good. And, father, thank you for humoring me in my request once upon a time to say you know what we should talk about? We should talk about chapter eight. Yeah, okay, well, we've. Uh, I know we're about time and you've got a lot to do today, yes, so again, thank you, and everybody who's been so patient with us and who have been joining us. Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much and please subscribe, download, subscribe, share with others.
Speaker 1:pray for us pray for one another. Yeah, and we've got a bunch of stuff coming up, so everybody look forward to seeing seeing you all next time. God bless, hasta later, bye.
