My Friend the Friar
A podcast where we learn about our faith and share what it takes to live a Catholic Christian life through conversations and contemplations with my friend the friar, a Discalced Carmelite Priest.
My Friend the Friar
How Christian Obedience Restores Dignity And Builds Trust (Season 3 Episode 42)
We explore respect and obedience through the lens of Christian discipleship, tracing how honor, office, and conscience intersect and how obedience, purified of fear, can lead to real freedom. Stories from religious life ground the theology in daily choices, conflict, and growth.
• respect as honor rooted in the dignity of persons
• Jesus is Lord as foundation for obedience
• kenosis and the purification of the will
• vows versus promises and formation in virtue
• separating person from office in authority
• conscience, limits of obedience, and channels for appeal
• avoiding legalism and passive-aggressive compliance
• speaking hard truths with prudence and charity
• moving from ritual attachment to interior freedom
• authority as service and the common good
• prayer, counsel, and reflection to discern God’s will
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Welcome to the My Friend the Friar podcast, and thanks for listening. If you like My Friend the Friar and want to support us, please consider subscribing or following us if you haven't already done so. And if you found us on YouTube, then don't forget to click the notification bell when you subscribe so you'll be notified of new episodes when they release. Thanks again and God bless. Good morning. Good morning, Father. And to everyone else, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the Friar Father Steven Sanchez, a discalced Carmelite priest. You're getting good at that. I was just thinking that, or because I'm going back and listening to all our old episodes, and I just got through the part where I can't say it for like three episodes in a row. I had to go practice. I was, I think I even go discalced, like trying to get it out. But I have my 173rd cup of coffee this morning. So there you go. See? So you can probably say it three times rapidly. Yes. I am ready. Okay. Um excuse me. So today we're talking about two words that can carry a lot of um, they carry a lot of weight, I think, with them. Um, and I think naturally and appropriately they carry a lot of weight. It's respect and obedience um for some people, right? These words um they can get twisted and there could be some wounds associated with uh with them, you know, events, people in their lives, kind of thing. But in the Christian tradition, there's something a lot deeper here um with trust and um or respect and obedience. And so like I think trust, surrender, love, there's like a lot of layers, as we're always talking about, layers and threads. Um, but that's kind of where I'm thinking with respect to and obedience. And so um, right, so there's some things I've been uh contemplating lately. And uh, for example, like what does it look like when obedience is not about control, when it's about that communion, that relationship with God, and uh win is respect not about performance, but about reverence, and how can like growing more obedient with uh to God bring greater freedom in my life? I know we were just talking in the last episode, maybe about um uh intentionality, right? Um and so anyway, so these are a lot of thoughts that have been kind of percolating lately, and um, and so wanted to talk with you about it. One of the vows you took um as a priest is towards obedience specifically. So I'm hoping you can help me consider and explore what respect and obedience look like, not just as like religious, um, but and not just in a spiritual religious aspect either, uh, in all of our lives, but outside of that kind of um that realm. How does how do our our understanding of respect and obedience, maybe from a spiritual or Christian standpoint, in uh inform how we approach respect and obedience outside of that in the kind of social realm? And so um, so maybe you can you can help. Let's start with like what is what respect and obedience is and what it is not that might be helpful.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, okay. Well, uh you chose some words that are uh kind of complicated and multi-layered.
SPEAKER_00:Uh so I think that's my job. Yeah. You did it, you did it well.
SPEAKER_02:So I I think in terms of respect and obedience, I think for us as Catholics and all Christians, respect is somehow linked to honor or honoring someone. That's what respect is about that. We give someone honor, we that we hold them in honor. Because you've linked respect and obedience in your consideration, then uh I'm going to make the supposition that you are speaking of respecting and orbeying and or obeying those in authority over us. And if this is true, then I would like also to suggest that there's a subtle point in the question of respect and obedience. We'll get uh I'll touch on that a little bit later. Usually when we speak of respecting someone, it points to a positive view that we have of that person, of that someone, of that institution, of that office, right? It may be a sense of admiration for qualities that we see in the person that has that authority, in that person's behavior or way of living, or their stance or perspective on life. Um for example, I can respect the discipline of those who serve us in the military, those who serve us in law enforcement. Uh, I can respect the desire to serve the common good in those who are first responders or volunteer first responders, uh, the gospel or evangelical values of those who speak and act in the name of the poor, and the marginalized, there's something to be respected and honored in that. But at the bottom of all these variables, uh, there is a value or worth in a person that we respect. And I think that's where sometimes the difficulty comes is a person who is in a place of an authority, right? And so is that person respectable? Is that person honorable? And if they're not, that's going to affect the way that I see their authority or their office and my capacity to respect and/or obey them. So there's there's some layers that we'll have to get into. Yeah, yeah. So I think in the context of our faith, respect is something that is inherent in our understanding of gospel values that Christ taught, the gospel values that he lived during his earthly ministry, and in those person, in whose person our understanding of respect is rooted. So it's about Christ, really. It's respecting Christ for us as Christians and his teachings and his uh example of living a life of uh discipleship and the covenantal life, right? So then for me as a Christian, I have an obligation as a disciple, as a believer, to respect the dignity of all persons, regardless of their station in life, regardless of their possession or lack thereof, regardless of their outer appearance or religious affiliation, because that is what Jesus lived, Jesus taught, and Jesus exemplified for us. It is an acknowledgement, first, of the dignity of all creation. Secondly, it's an acknowledgement of the corporal and spiritual being of all persons. And as a disciple, the acknowledgement that I, as a believer, am obligated to see all as sons and daughters of our Heavenly Father, and therefore in Christ as my brothers and sisters. So there's lots of levels here that we would have to, you know, sort of start unpacking and consider in terms of my understanding of obedience and respect. Yeah. So in the question of respect, in our organic body as faith and the organism of our faith, we have to start with a very early statement of faith, and that is that Jesus is Lord. That statement carries a lot of weight, as well as the oriental understanding of majesty, dignity, and honor that is due to the Lord, to the Kyria, to the Christos. The Lord is someone to whom I owe respect and obedience. And the fact that this was one of the first creedal statements, yeah, Jesus is Lord. That means that there's uh I have an obligation to him as Lord to follow him, to obey him and to respect him, his his teachings and the example that he leaves us, right? Okay, then this then segues into the topic of obedience. Obedience is something that is owed to someone who has some level of authority over us. In the religious realm, in the hierarchy of the church, we would be talking about popes, bishops, priests that are pastors, religious superiors, spiritual directors. And just as all authority is founded upon and flows from God the Father, obedience finds its perfection and font in the obedience of Jesus Christ. I will have to say that authority in its perfection is found in God the Father, and obedience in its perfection is found in the obedience of Jesus Christ. Right.
SPEAKER_00:I wish I had um like a sound effects board or some some ability to set an alarm off right now because there's a nerd alert happening in my brain. Okay. Every time you bring up uh Eastern understandings uh or yeah, Eastern understanding of concepts. My just my nerd alert goes on because I then I become so fascinated because then I wonder, um, like you're saying, the the Eastern understanding of Lord and then obedience and respect and all that kind of stuff. It makes me go, do I don't the what's the Princess Bride uh quote? Like the the the word you keep saying, I don't think it means what you think it means. I don't I don't think I know what it means appropriately. Like I don't think I have the full understanding of it in my Western modern culture.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And I think that's part that's missing in our Western Christianity is the oriental understanding of these things, for example, ambassador, uh Majesty, King, uh even Friend of Caesar, which is very Western. Uh all those things that for the Oriental mind, a Lord, a king, is someone that is invested with some sort of divine power, right? There's there's some sort of manifestation of the divinity there, right? And so when we say Lord, the oriental understanding, the Eastern understanding of that is that this is and of course Jesus is divine, yeah, obviously, but the fact that he is Lord, that there is I have an obligation, a duty. It is it would be dishonorable for me not to be obedient to my Lord. It would be shameful for me to not obey my Lord, because then I would be disrespecting the majesty and the honor of that office of that person, right?
SPEAKER_00:And so I think Yeah, I was gonna say that the when you said it would be uh dishonorable, I was I was thinking as you as you were saying that, that's almost not strong enough of a word, and then you said shameful, and I was like, Yeah, right? Like it it would be so scandalous if you didn't you know do the thing that you are supposed to. It's like everybody understood at the time. This is how this is what Lord means, and this is what that requires of you, right? And to not do that is just an insanely shameful kind of thing, and we don't understand that in the United States. It's like, well, I don't like you, so I'm not gonna do what you say. Exactly. Well, uh liking you, and I'm sure we'll get into this later, liking you has nothing to do with if I should be doing what you say kind of thing. Exactly, exactly. Okay, so um like do you have any any fame uh favorite like scripture quotes or saint quotes or anything about obedience, like something that's just always kind of resonated with you?
SPEAKER_02:I think the the for me the most I think challenging um and thereby uh growth, um producing uh scripture passage from myself, my own reflection. It comes from the hymn to Christ that is found in Philippians, and this is where Paul is speaking about uh the humility uh of Christ and emptying himself, right? And I think for me it's sort of like and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. For me, this obedience of Christ to the point of death is something that's continuously is a challenge. Uh and is always like, okay, dude, you know, like cowboy up. So uh how are you, how are you facing obedience, right? Um this whole idea of kenosis that Christ empties himself, which I think is part and partial of obedience because it asks of me some level of emptying of myself, emptying of my ego, emptying of my pride, uh, emptying myself of like I know better, or like, you know, or my reason or whatever, right? Not that obedience means that we are blind, it's blind obedience and we do stupid things. No, it's asking of me to submit my will, my desire to do what I want to do, and to bridle that, to to reign that back and to enter into a task that is asked of me that someone else desires for me to do, right?
SPEAKER_00:And yeah, because it's it's all other centered. Yes, right, and that's the same thing like trust is not about you, it's about it's putting the focus on the other person thing, whatever. And so you're kind of dancing around some stuff and like as as a Carmelite. So um, like what does it meant for you as a Carmelite? And like, is there any kind of moment where it be obedience became something that was like beautiful, or it was like freedom in that obedience versus feeling like, oh, I have to do this thing out of obligation.
SPEAKER_02:It depends where you find yourself and what is being asked of you, I guess. Yeah, because because obedience purifies our will, right? Our will is like the can be very egocentrical and prideful and stuff, and the the whole idea of preserving my autonomy, right? So because obedience purifies our will, it is one of the most difficult aspects of Christianity because its aim is to lead us to a freedom of spirit that allows us to serve in complete trust without bias or prejudice, right? And that's the challenge. The challenge is that the obedience is asking me to trust. Obedience is asking me to step outside of my own preferences, my own bias, my own prejudice. We are called to obey the gospel way of life as Christians, right? That we're called to obey that way of life, and that is difficult to live a gospel life. As a religious, I have taken a vow, uh a vow of obedience, a solemn promise to apply this aspect of obedience and poverty and chastity to my life. So diocesan priests and those who belong to religious congregations instead of religious orders do not take a vow but take a promise. The obligation is the same, and the only difference is a juridical one. The only difference between my vow and a promise is the fact that uh to be released from my vow, it has to go all the way to the Holy See. Uh, and for uh someone that belongs to a congregation, it only has to go to their general or to their superior, depending on what uh institution they belong to. Uh but the point of the obedience is it really how it's it helps us to it should, I should say, it should help us to be objective about ourselves and our will, and how at times the ego can get in the way of um living a life of discipleship.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:There have been times when I've been asked to do something that I did not care for, and I had to apply myself to complete it. And there have been times when I have been told to do something which I personally did not agree with, but had to comply with because of my vows. This of you know is of course, it's purifying and it's difficult. But if we carry it out well, it can also lead to a greater freedom from the self's desire to do what I want to do, my preference, my brothers. And it helps us to see things in a different light and hopefully with a different understanding than when initially undertaken. There develops an understanding that even though I cannot understand God's hand in this particular situation, I can entrust it to him and surrender whatever the outcome may be to him and his plan. For example, one of the things, one of the first difficult things for me was after I got back from Spain. Uh, we had a chapter, and the provincial and the council uh appointed me to be superior uh uh Merrillake at the castle. And I said, I can't be superior, and the provincial says, Why? I go, because those people have been religious longer than I have. I'm the I would be the youngest member of the community, and I can't go and and be superior over them. And then he shut me down real quick. He goes, What he said was, Do you think so little of your brothers that they cannot accept you as a superior?
SPEAKER_00:Dang. It's like he didn't even make it about you. He just you didn't even have a chance.
SPEAKER_02:Wow, holy cow! So yeah, so after he knocked me over with a two by four, I said, Well uh what could I say? It's like I yeah, I guess I'll okay, I guess I'll go.
SPEAKER_00:So what was his name?
SPEAKER_02:Father Aloysius, he passed away recently.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, bless his soul. Um man, that's man, what a good story. It was.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, he did he just just sort of like totally out of left field. I was not expecting that. And I go like, holy, yeah, okay. Sort of basically, yeah, challenging me to step outside of myself.
SPEAKER_00:Like, yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Jesus.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So, like, so far, a lot of this kind of stuff, it makes me think about um child and parent kind of relationship, which it probably should, because God's our father and He we're his children, and there are things that we want to do, and God's like, don't do that. Um and um, and then you can go read the Bible for yourself, right? Um, because that's basically the whole story. But anyway, so um, so it's interesting how it's just it's um triggering all those kinds of thoughts in my head as we're talking.
SPEAKER_02:Um Yeah, and again again, I think that's I think that's where a lot of our understanding of obedience and respect comes from from our early formation. And so if you have good formation and good models, then as you get as you grow older, you don't have a problem with authority or obedience. And I'll talk about that a little bit later too, because if you don't have a good example, then you're gonna find yourself struggling with respect and obedience, period.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and this is probably where a lot of our wounds, and like I said at the beginning, the twistedness uh of these words in our lives come from, like those bad um examples, yes. Yeah. So when so with uh respect, right? So that's obedience with respect. Like, how does your community live that like when you're saying like you've been asked to do stuff and you didn't necessarily agree, or been told to do stuff and you didn't agree? So, like, how do you do respect when you when there's a disagreement as well?
SPEAKER_02:Hmm. When it when it comes to respect, um, and for us as religious because of our religious communal life, there is what I would call an institutional respect of authority, it's sort of part of the culture, right? Uh, the religious culture to respect those in authority. Uh in many ways, it it is like military service. There is obedience and respect, even if there is disagreement, right? And at times we can be disappointed or angry with someone's behavior or lack thereof in the community. And how it resolves itself depends on the maturity of the individuals involved. Uh it's there's no uniform way of doing it, depends on, again, like we just talked about, the the early formation, their formative life that they lived, and their understanding of obedience and respect, and how that works out in the in amongst the individuals in the community. Usually it is worked out among the members themselves. Usually there's there's some level of maturity that they will talk about themselves, they'll talk it out themselves, they'll they'll work it through themselves. When it comes to respecting those in authority over us, uh, I have never witnessed any type of disrespectful interaction as far as I've noticed or witnessed myself. There can be disagreements and even strong disagreements, but I have never witnessed or heard of any type of disrespect of anyone in authority. So again, there is that institutional sort of like, this is what's expected, this is what you've signed up for, this is how we live. And so this is part of what's asked of us as religious, right? And so I think uh I've never really run into it. I mean, I've heard of stories of in the old days, right? Um about stuff like that, you know, arguments and fights and stuff like that, but not that I've not that I've witnessed in my life, no.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, and and and that kind of makes me that you went to kind of strong examples or lack of strong examples of disagreement and and stuff like that. A lot of people, I think, nowadays, especially, if I disagree with you, I'm being hateful towards you or something like that too, right? So it's like this weird, super strong connection, um, as opposed to just no, I don't agree with you. And that's okay, you know.
SPEAKER_02:Right. And I think that it goes back to again to human formation and human maturity. Um, if you don't, you know, you might have an opinion or a preference. Uh but that shouldn't I that should not identify who you are and a disagreement with someone. If somebody disagrees with you over your opinion, that has nothing to do with who you with who you are as a person. It's not disagreeing with you as a person, it's disagreeing with your opinion, your your attitude, or your vision, right? And so I think sometimes uh there's a lack of maturity in understanding that my opinion is just that, it's an opinion, or my preference is just that, it's a preference. And so I think sometimes we get confused and we feel uh violated, I think it's a strong word, but to have my my desire, my my want violated, I take it as a personal violation instead of like, well, no, yeah, that's just not I don't agree with you, or I don't agree with that viewer perspective. And to to be able to respect each other even in that disagreement.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So okay, so then so now like I guess going back to obedience, then I I think a lot of people struggle with it. Um I I don't know, thinking about myself too, like there's been times where I'm sure I have, um, but I I know a lot of people who struggle with obedience, especially like when it's not clear who or what they're really um being asked to obey, and uh and maybe it feels more like control than trust. And and to me, like this starts really getting to like relationship. Um, I don't have a relationship with this person or this organization, like you're saying, y'all are Carmelites, y'all know what you signed up for, y'all have been formed in this, so you have a relationship with the community and the concepts of the commute community too, right? So, like I can see like this like people feeling like they're being controlled, and instead of like in when there's a disagreement, instead of feeling like I'm being heard or understood, it's just nope, I'm being controlled in this. Somebody's telling me what to think, think or say or do kind of thing. So, like, there's this tension between oneself and the other. And again, it makes me think there's like a component of trust and love um in all of this, which are you know the the virtues, I think hope and and charity kind of come to mind because you're focused on the other and not yourself. And this is not maybe every situation, right? Like I don't need to love my boss, you know what I mean. But but but there is a relationship there, right? Um, and then a more personal relationship like you and me, like there should be trust and love, there should be hope and charity in our relationship, which helps me to respect and be obedient towards you, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02:I think um immediately I'm thinking of you know, they're there within the church and outside of the church, within the community of faith and outside the community of faith. The first thing that I thought of as I was listening to you and this tension, right? I immediately, again, movie. Um Did you see Hacksaw Ridge?
SPEAKER_00:I know the title. I I don't know if I have. I I know the title.
SPEAKER_02:Maybe if you talk, I'll remember if I'm saying this young soldier who for religious purposes cannot or will not carry arms, will not uh fire, right? He because uh it goes against his his religious conscience, right? And so everybody makes fun of him, everybody's picking on him, and so he becomes he's a medic, but he is always the butt of jokes, and people disrespect him because he's not the killing machine that he should be, right? You know, this whole crap, right? Anyway, um so winds up, they find themselves uh trying to take over this ridge, Hexaw Ridge, and that these people are getting absolutely massacred, right? And so the the army uh they they run away. Uh so as as they pull back, they're pulling back, and they they all the armies, you know, the all the uh troops are are called back. But this kid, um as a medic, he keeps going back to save people, to drag people, to drag people back in. So, you know, as they've all they're all have left the hill, and so who's up there? And there's this dude, and he keeps going back into the line of fire, and he keeps dragging people back out of harm's way, right? All these wounded people, and so even though he did not um uh carry arms, and he refused to carry arms, and because of his religious conviction, he had to go in there and he saved those people out of his religious conviction, right? And so I was thinking about that. There is that tension there, like, okay, so he refused to obey uh to kill people, to carry arms, but he was still in the military and he was still dedicated as a medic and he served in that way. And um so there there are moments and times when you can. Out of conscience, you know, disobey, and you have to suffer the consequences of that. But again, it's keeping your own moral dignity, right? This is where the respect and the tension comes, rhyme, right? So that's outside, that's outside the realm of uh the hierarchy of the church. In the human realm of the hierarchy, we have to take into consideration the humanness of the vehicle, that is the person placed in a position of authority. So bishops, popes, whatever they are, they're still human beings, they're still flawed, they're still sinful, they're still broken and wounded and in the process of being redeemed. They do not cease being human and imperfect. So we have to make a distinction between the office that they hold and the person that fills that office. For example, the Petrine office, the office of the papacy and the individuals that hold that office of authority. There is only one Petrine office, but there have been hundreds of individuals who have had to fill that office, each with their own perspective and each with their own style of administration. And because of people's difficulty in separating the person or personality of the one holding the office from the office itself, it leads to people into falling into disobedience or being selective in their obedience or being rebellious or just being outright, you know, just refusing to obey, which then renders, you know, that selective obedience or that resentful obedience, it makes it less than meritorious. It's not really obedience anymore, because basically it's stating, I'll only obey if I like or I or I agree with what you are asking of me, or I will obey because I like you, or I won't obey because I don't like you, right? And so then that those elements come into our interaction or relationship with obedience and respect. Again, granted, there are persons who are either good or bad leaders, good or bad administrators. There are persons who have their own struggles yet are asked to undertake the burden of leadership or of authority. Some of these individuals fulfill the role wonderfully, and others who do it badly. The fine line comes to being able to respect the person. Respect, I'm sorry, respect the office that the person holds and be respectful and obedient because of the office and not necessarily because of the person that holds that particular office. That makes sense.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and I think I think the unfortunately, fortunately, I guess, depending on how much you you trust um the Holy Spirit. Uh popes are a great example because man, we've had a handful of not so good ones. You know what I mean? Um all especially back in like the Middle Ages and all that stuff. There was all sorts of bad stuff going on. The Borgia popes. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so it's like, yeah, nerdlerk again. Um we don't go on a historical tangent, but there's how hard would it have been to so see to have to be obedient to uh a pope who is so blatantly living in sin. Right. You know what I mean? Um yeah, I don't like I couldn't imagine and well, and especially our day and age, nobody nobody would do that. They'd be like, nope, this invalidates the whole church, or nope, the the chair of Peter is empty, or nope, like whatever, you know what I mean? Like everyone would just revolt, and that is a maybe a good segue back to our descent um episode, which was what episode season one, episode six. Okay, yeah. Um anyway, remember the how do you disagree and all that kind of stuff um without revolting, right? Descent and and revolt are different, but anyway, yeah, so it just it makes me think about a lot of those those kinds of things, and and maybe in my life when I've been asked to do stuff too, um, or when the person who's asking me, I just oh, I can't get behind that person, but who they are or the office, the position that they hold, I need to respect, you know. Yeah. So like what about like as a priest? Have you ever been in a kind of situation? Not so so much necessarily, or maybe not so much as a Carmelite, but just like as a priest. Or maybe as a Carmelite, you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_02:I think so far. So far.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Up until this point, the only time that I've really experienced tension with someone who has been under me as a subject has been with someone who seemed to have problems with authority figures, period. That is, with the office of authority and whoever happened to fill that office. Things were difficult, but I had the capacity to not take it as a personal rebuff as you know as me as a person, as much as it was as a psychological impediment between us. I knew that this existed, and I knew it existed, but you know, the other person did not, obviously, because they're the ones with the problem. There's once they're the ones with the authority figure. And of course, no matter what I say, I'm wrong, and I always will be wrong because I'm in a position of authority. And so to me, that helps to understand that relation and forms that relation relationship. But then again, that speaks more to a personal psychological and human formation problem, which you have to maneuver because you cannot order someone to psychological health. You know, you can like I, you know, I put you, I place you under obedience to to be psychologically healthy, right? Or to heal yourself or whatever. No, you can't.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And so I had to have an emotional distance and in and an indifference to be able to deal with that very difficult situation uh in a way that uh hinders that person or hindered that person from causing harm to the larger community because I had to, I had to, again, I had to correct and I had to do some stuff to um minimize the damage he was causing in the community. But of course, he wasn't able to see that, and so again, I still have to sort of be there and be indifferent and be emotionally removed from the situation and still function as an office without authority to try and to isolate this person from the rest of the community so this person doesn't harm uh the rest of the community. So yeah, it's those are difficult tense situations.
SPEAKER_00:Um because you kind of imagine I was saying, I imagine you you grew a lot in that situation too.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, yeah. I had to there was again, it was a it's a a situation which God used, you know, for for my own growth. And so again, what happens is you have to have a more a more nuanced understanding of what it means to be in authority, and when you've been in authority and then you're a subject again, then you understand all the nuances of holding that office, and it makes you much more understanding and and um about the office and the the complexity of the office.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Do you think um do you need to be a good leader to be a good follower, or vice versa? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:It helps. I mean, there are people who are great at commanding and terrible at following orders, and there are people that are great at following orders and terrible at commanding or having authority. So it depends on on your uh again, your abilities, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, your personal disposition kind of yeah. Um can you can you be obedient? Like, well, is it in this example? Can you really be obedient to something or someone if you don't respect them? Hmm. Like if respect and obedience, if if my kind of theory here is that they are linked to some degree.
SPEAKER_02:Like, can you there's a subtle distinction, and again, goes back to it depends a lot on the maturity or lack of maturity of the individual or individuals involved, either as a subject or as a person in a place of authority. I can respect the office of someone in authority and maybe not respect the person's way of behaving or interacting with others. Again, it goes to the capacity to separate the behavior from the person and the behavior and the person from the office that they hold.
unknown:St.
SPEAKER_02:John of the Cross tells us that we should not have in mind the person's qualities, good or ill, when it comes to obedience, but we should have in mind the office which they hold and the office through which Christ manifests his will in my life. Humanly speaking, it is easier to obey someone you respect or love, and a lot harder to obey someone who, in your eyes, is lacking in something worth respecting.
SPEAKER_00:So then just trying to think. So there's so respect and obedience, like I was saying at the excuse me, I was saying in at the beginning, there's like all these different layers to things, right? So um there could be an aspect of mutual respect here, like I have to like can you lead if you don't respect the people you're leading, or the people that you or uh uh if you have authority over people, can you really do that if you don't respect them, right? Like I might respect God as my authority and I want to be like him, but I don't respect the peasants, you know. I'm thinking like the kings of old kind of thing, like I don't respect the peasants, then can I really um be in a place of authority? And or if I don't trust the person that I'm obeying, then and I know you're like we're talking about all the the the personal nature, like everyone's a unique snowflake, right? So everyone has to take into account themselves in this kind of intellectual exercise we're doing, right? So it's like if I don't respect them, then am I obeying just out of fear of punishment and not love or not really out of respect of the the office or whatever. And and may um maybe love is sometimes it's the right word, maybe sometimes it's the wrong. But um I don't know, it just makes me think how like it kind of goes back in some situations, especially really personal relationships, um, or really intimate relationships in our life, how love and trust are a big kind of part of all of it. So then thinking like so like did how did your vow for obedience like how has it shaped you in your formation as a priest, in your community, as a person, you know, when you've had to obey things that you're like you've been asked to do that you didn't necessarily agree with, um, or or like, and like how did you stay grounded in all of that? You know, like how did you learn to step back enough to have the objectivity to go through these things, you know? Okay. Uh good. I know that's a lot. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Good questions, good probing questions. Um, okay, so the the vow or or the promise of obedience is meant to be a structure like poverty, chastity, obedience. For us, it is a structure within our our religious lives or our lives as ministers, right? And they should help us to develop the virtues, right? The virtue of obedience, the virtue of chastity, the virtue uh uh of being able to live this evangelical life and the evangelical councils. And so that is where obedience, you know, as a virtue, that's where obedience becomes life-giving and spirit-led. But before I can come to that place of having the virtue of obedience, I have to be able to discipline myself in the vow of obedience. I have to discipline myself in obeying to attack that very fundamental desire to do what I want to do, when I want to, and how I want to. And that cuts deep because we become aware of how selfish and egotistical we can be. And that is where the deeper conversion happens in that conversion of the will. That is the area in which we are challenged to be other-centered in that will, to let go of the ego, the selfish ego, and to be other-centered as Christ was other-centered, to leave my ego-centered perspective aside and genuinely consider the well-being of others. And then the question of obedience, to trust in a will, the divine will, uh, God's will, uh, the will of the church, uh, that that will is greater than mine, and their under the understanding is greater than my understanding.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:It kind of makes me think real quick of um just kind of some of the things that we were saying in our intentionality episode. Um, the the intention of showing up to the things like we're you're talking about, like uh the discipline, right? I know I I I give my consent to that this will is greater than mine. And so then my intention is I want to follow this will that is greater than mine. There's a respect there and then obedience that drives the intention, that drives the discipline formation and things like that. And I think um I was reading confessions um the other day, Saint uh Augustine. Do you say Augustine or Augustine?
SPEAKER_02:What do you say? I say Augustine.
SPEAKER_00:Augustine. So I was reading his confession, and um he talks about these kinds of things too, I think, like how selfish he was as a child and how we're born that way and things like that. So it's really interesting. Anyway, sorry.
SPEAKER_02:That's fine. No, no, good. Um so again, so this whole thing about formation and being formed in obedience and being formed in the vows. I think in initial formation, like any recruit, uh, there is a zeal and a desire to do all things well.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And thank God, you know, I walked into religious life with my eyes wide open. I wasn't expecting perfection. I was expecting mature adult men. And in fact, before I entered, my dad wanted to talk to me about what I expected, right? What do you expect when you're younger? What is it that you're expecting? What are you, you know, you wanted to make sure that I wasn't entering with rose-colored glasses and and that I wasn't expecting to see everybody levitate during prayer. So like these are men, they're you know, they're human, and so I want to make sure that you understand what you're getting into. And so, yeah, so yeah. Right. And even with your eyes wide open, there's still the ideal that we all desire, the ideal that we all are striving for. So, in initial formation, as you observe the community, you begin to see the various levels of human psychological maturity, as in any family. There is a plethora of characters and personalities, and and each one is attempting to respond to God's call to give themselves to Him in prayer and service. And because as a newbie, you know, full of zeal and ideals, you begin to notice the humanness of the formators. Some very wholly dedicated men who are journeying to empty the self of selfish ego, and others who are struggling with defects of personality, and yet both are instruments through which you are being formed.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Do you think that's a big that's maybe one of the biggest challenges for yeah, definitely, because you have to accept the humanness or the limitedness of the formator. Uh and that happens all the time, everywhere, everywhere. Uh, every seminary and every first person that comes in, they're coming in to change the change the church and save the church and change the order, change the diocese or whatever. Like you're like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And then they're like, what are y'all doing?
SPEAKER_02:You're like, yeah, you don't understand. Uh so anyway, during one of my assignments, I had a superior who I personally did not respect as a person. Uh he tended to be argumentative and contradictory. He was absent from most of the community acts and things like that. That made respecting him and obeying him very difficult. But even in a distasteful situation like that, you have to separate, again, the person from the office and respect the office they hold, regardless of the person that holds that office. Of course, it would come down to if you know, if it comes down to a question of abuse of office, then you're not bound to obey. You're not bound to obey anything that is asked of you that is, that is sinful. And there are channels through which you can voice your concerns and seek advice outside, right? If you have a superior that you find is you have a difficult time with, yeah, there are channels and there are ways in which you can address this and seek counsel, right, within the order and within the administrative uh channels, right? To help you understand and help you deal with the situation. So that there's ways of dealing with again because we've been at it for you know a while now. We've been at it for a while, so we we know the human elements and all the human different possibilities that that occur.
SPEAKER_00:Do you do you think um do you think that experience uh with that person um I'm thinking like before and after, do you think you were good at kind of keeping yourself separated from the person or being able to separate the person from the office prior to that? Or do you think that experience really helped you to kind of grow in that ability?
SPEAKER_02:I think it was I think it was a growth uh a growth point because it really made it the only possible way for me to continue to live in community uh without losing my mind, would be to be able to do that, to make the distinction between the office of authority that they had and the person that was in that office.
SPEAKER_00:Um what is a cat is the catechism says, like we can't it is wrong for us to act against our conscience. Yes, I'm super paraphrasing, right? So it's like at some point in time you have to there's a discernment, like I know what you're asking me to do, and I I completely respect your position and all that stuff, but what you're asking me to do, like I really think is wrong, and I think that's a that's a hard line to to figure out, like, not that I don't like it, but it's wrong, right?
SPEAKER_02:The informed conscience, you have to inform your conscience, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. So how do you keep it from just becoming like rigid? Like, you know, like you think you see in the military or whatever, it's like go kill the guys. Okay, you told me to do it, I'm not even gonna think, I'm gonna go do it. You know, like or like legalistic, even it's like, what does the law say? But you know, Jesus is always like, what is the nature of the law? What uh so like how do you keep it from from being technical and something like that? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:That would depend again solely on the individual uh that is called to obedience, right? If the authority, again, uh this is a two-way street, if the person in authority, the superior, uh, is rigid or legalistic, that would complicate the situation some. But the real change or obedience would reside in the person that is being called to obedience. If the subject is being what is called nowadays, you know, maliciously compliant, that that is nothing more than a passive-aggressive disobedience and disrespect, completely opposite of what a Christian or religious person should be doing. So there is a way of being obedient in a way that is disrespectful and passive aggressive, and there's a way of actually submitting the will. And that's where the real obedience is, is the submission of will. And again, it doesn't mean that you become a robot or automaton, but that you know, you go through the process of discernment and asking yourself, you know, is this a growth point for me? Is God asking me to grow and expand my understanding, or is God asking me to grow in humility, right? To do this thing that I may not care for or may not like doing?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. One of the things like it makes me think about is obedience. Um, like in at least in my mind, right? I'm not saying this is correct or anything, but um how do I say it? Like, if a like for some reason, like the imagery of like a dog comes to mind, like an obedient dog, the master says it you and it, you do it, right? There's no thinking, it doesn't matter what your will is, doesn't matter what your desire is, you have been domesticated to the point where you've you just follow orders. And then in that again, in my imagery in my mind, it's like there's a excuse me, there's like the dog wears a collar, right? There's just all these kinds of things of like subjugation almost, right? And so it's like like we want to be obedient, right? You're saying it's a virtue, so it's like I don't want to lose my dignity in this. It should be something that is brings about a freedom, right? A virtue. So it's like, how do I do this without losing my dignity? How do I show respect and you know be obedient when uh you know I'm hurting or when I disagree? Um, how do I be obedient when like I feel like I should say something to this person that is like maybe a hard truth that they need to hear if if whether I'm in a position of authority or the per the position of uh following, right? You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_02:I think you know dignity, dignity is something that we each have, and our dignity is not dependent on being disobedient or disrespectful or obedient and respectful. Dignity is an understanding of the self, an understanding of who I am, again, as God's child, and to truly understand and believe that, and that that is the center of your existence, right? That's how you see yourself and understand yourself. So that I can be obedient even in a situation that I am not in agreement with, and still maintain my dignity. Again, it is a matter of personal maturity and understanding the greater scheme of things. And I think that's again, it goes back to personal understanding, personal growth, you know, maturity. That's where a lot of this really is key, right? We show respect by respectful obedience. We can express our disagreement or our hurt, but also state that we are willing to obey, even if we find it difficult to comply wholly and completely. Like I don't agree with this, I completely disagree. I don't think this is the right track, but okay, but I'm willing to do this because you're in a person of authority and this is your will, and this is what you believe to be true, and this is your area. This is you have authority over this area, and you're telling me to do this, and so okay, I will do this, but I wanted to let you know that I don't agree with this, right? When it comes to speaking a hard truth, yeah, we would have to speak about prudence and temperance if we're going to speak a hard truth, right? Is the person open to the truth? Are they capable of receiving the truth you want to share? You can speak your truth, but without the desire to be right or to win in arguments. Once you speak the truth, you have fulfilled your moral and ethical duty. Now the onus is on them and how they receive this truth and how they treat it and what they do with it. You have fulfilled your obligation. I don't agree with this. This is my opinion. You do with it what you will. I have I have said this because I believe you know God has put this on my heart. Now, whatever you do with that, now it's between you and God. I have fulfilled my obligation. And if you can if you ask me to do this still, okay, I'll do it. But I have spoken the truth, right? In the situation that I mentioned earlier with that difficult superior, we we had a confrontation. He asked me to stop speaking to a particular parishioner who had befriended me and with whom I enjoyed talking. Uh he gave no reason or concern, right? He just told me he didn't like it, he didn't want me to speak into this person. I found that request weird and attributed it to his just being weird, right? Yeah, he later confronted me and ordered me, under obedience, to stop speaking with this person, right? I stood my ground and I told him in a raised voice, I stood my ground and I told him that I had never allowed my parents to pick my friends or acquaintances. And how did he think I would allow him to do that? I told him that as superior, he could ask me to be moved to another monastery because that was within his rights and within the sphere of his authority. But picking my friends was not one of my best moments, but I was not willing to allow that again, violation of my conscience. That's a question of conscience you brought up earlier.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, wow. Yeah, that's just and that just makes me think of all sorts of life experiences too, you know. Like um, like uh again, thinking uh with my daughter when she was younger, like uh yeah, I don't I don't think you really want to be friends with those kind of people, you know. And now even older in life, hey, you're going to college, be mindful of who you're friends with, kind of things, right? And she may not well, she she doesn't um understand the way I do because she doesn't have the life experiences that I have at my age, right? To be able to know things, but ultimately um in that relationship, she's I I can't force her to do X, Y, or Z kind of thing. And so um yeah, just the the oh the tension of human relationship, right? It's hard.
SPEAKER_02:Complicated by poverty, translating obedience, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Um I've I found this this quote from Saint Teresa of Avila, and it says, I believe, or she says, I believe, that since the devil sees there is no path that leads more quickly to the highest perfection than obedience, he sets up many annoyances and difficulties under the color of good. And that I think right there just speaks right back to what we were just saying like, how do I how do I approach any kind of situation where I feel right? And we talked about feelings before too, feelings are important, but like I feel that this thing is not or that this other thing is good. I need to. Follow this other thing that's good, not what's being asked of me or or whatever. And then the the answer, the only answer is we do that imperfectly, right? So um, yeah, so I can see like so obedience is it's less about blind submission, yeah. It's more of aligning my will with something other than me, something greater than me. And um, you know, Saint Teresa in this example, she's she's speaking first and foremost about uh obedience to God's will, um, not to a person or institution um as the starting point. The starting point is God's will. What is God's will in these things? And so the question becomes how do we know when it's God's will now? Like, how do I know if this is God's will that I'm obeying or trying to be obedient to? Like when when when are our acts of obedience holy? And when are they sanctifying? And when are they toxic or fear-based, you know? Um and I'd think like community and prayer probably are really important here. Um, so you're not you don't turn into your own echo chamber. Because you know, when you're the only one talking to yourself, you're right all the time.
SPEAKER_02:As a religious or as a priest, of course, yeah, diocesan priest, uh you should bring it to prayer. All Christians, I guess. All Christians should bring these questions to prayer and pray about it, right? You should wait until you're not in an emotional or reactive state. You have to come to a place of tranquility and peace, remove that emotion, right, so that you're not just reacting. And then, you know, bring the situation to someone you trust to get a more objective view. You know, consult somebody. Don't it's not a matter of gossip. It's like I need somebody to help me to see this in a different way, or you know, a sounding board. Am I right? Am I wrong? You know, and try to understand the situation. Um if it's a question of a difficult superior or a difficult bishop, it is a matter of accepting that part of the suffering is the cross that has come into our lives. But there has to be a way of approaching the situation, the cross, in a way that may be challenging but is also life-giving and positive. There has to bring us growth, right? The same may be said for a superior bishop who has to deal with a subject that is resistant to obedience. Again, it's very important to separate the person from the office or rank that they hold. It's not personal, it's a challenge to a person's worldview, and you have to consider that in your interaction with that person. During my novishit, my first year as religious, uh, I would read the precautions of St. John of the Cross every night before going to bed because I trusted his insight and I was trying to understand how to adapt to this new religious culture. So in his precautions, he gives advice against uh our three enemies, the world, the flesh, and the devil. And just like Teresa, he puts obedience under the precaution uh against the devil. So the second precaution against the devil, St. John of the Cross says, Let the second precaution be that you always look upon the superior as though upon God, no matter who he happens to be, for he takes God's place. And note that the devil, humility's enemy, is a great and crafty meddler in this area. Watch therefore with singular care that you study neither his character, his mode of bus his mode of behavior, his ability, or any of his other methods of procedure, for you will harm yourself as to change your obedience from divine to human, being motivated only by the visible traits of the superior and not by the invisible God whom you serve through him. Your obedience is vain and all the more fruitless in the measure that you allow the superior's unpleasant character to annoy you, or his good and pleasing manners to make you happy. If you do not strive with respect to your personal feelings to be unconcerned about whether about whether this one or another be superior, you will by no means be a spiritual person, nor will you keep your vows.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So yeah, you get like guys around his age and um Thomas Aquinas and stuff, but then even going all the way back, like the old, old stuff, like I was saying earlier with Augustine, like a lot of time, they'll just straight call you out on stuff. They don't they don't really beat around the bush, they're just like, nope, you do this and you're doing good, you don't do this, you're not doing so good. Right, right. Um okay, so can you help us then to understand because you've been you've been talking a lot about it in a religious context, right? In the context of our faith. So can you help us understand like faith and faith and obedience, respect and obedience in that that um kind of context of our faith? So it's not just external things we show to people, right? Like a priest or a bishop or to my boss at work or whatever, um, and and not just to structures of authority, but like also the the interior attitudes of trust and humility, right? How can you help us kind of or help me like put all that kind of stuff together?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, there's again many, many, many, many threads. Uh I know. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Write it down, we'll talk about it later. Or forget to.
SPEAKER_02:So it goes to the very heart of the spirit of obedience and what obedience does in the human person. Obedience asks of us to trust a greater design than what we are capable of understanding. And sometimes you know, we have we have examples of that in the early church and throughout the history of the church, uh up until the present day. In the early church, the Judaizers during the time of Saint Paul were genuinely concerned with the purity of the faith and genuinely believed that if you wanted to be saved by Christ, you had to first embrace Judaism. They were unwilling to acknowledge the authority of the apostles on this question because the apostles gave Paul permission to continue to teach that they didn't have to become uh Jews, that they didn't have to enter embrace Judaism. And so the Judaizers they believed themselves to know better or to have a greater knowledge of what God's plan was on this question. Uh, they were unable to see God's hand in the preaching to and acceptance of the Gentiles. They were unable to see that God was at work in the Council of Jerusalem, just as there have been many Catholics who have not been able to accept the authority of the various councils of the church when it broaches a subject that they are unwilling to accept. That is what led to the many heresies and schismatics in the early and in the present-day church. It can be attributed to several root causes. It can be a lack of catechesis, it can be an emotional or a sentimental attachment to a particular thing or way of doing things. It can be attributed to a fear of losing control. It can be even an idolatrous attachment to a particular way of thinking or behaving. At times it can even be attributed to some magical thinking, that it is about performing a ritual just so, which reduces the right into a recipe, which is not what it is meant to be, and a total lack of understanding of what is actually occurring in the sacrament or the sacramental.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's the the whole um that last part, like where we struggle with the performat performatism. I don't know, performative spirituality feeling. Yeah, like I have to do this this way, or else I'm not doing it right. Right, right, right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right. So I remember um as a kid. Going to church, going to St. Agnes there in San Antonio. That's where I was baptized and raised there, St. Agnes. And we're going to church, running to church, and so we're, you know, we don't want to be late, so we're running, and then so my mom, we get to the we get to the church doors, and oh my god, I forgot my veil. I can't go in without my veil. And so then she reaches in, she looks through her purse and pulls out a Kleenex and puts a Kleenex on her head and ties it, unfolds it, pulls it, and puts it on her head with a bobby pin. And I'm there like, What? It was just very strange to me. I just understand this, right? But that was the understanding. You you this is the way it was done, right? And so again, it was sort of like almost, you know, idolatrous in the like this is the way it has to be. Like, okay, like you know, does God God doesn't understand that? Okay, you're not coming in here intentionally without your veil, or does the veil really make you that much more, that much less, whatever? So, anyway. So, and there are people that are attached to their veils, and God bless them. And you know, if you want to use your veil, use your veil. It's just uh if that helps you pray or it makes you a better person. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_00:Um no, and and yeah, and and it just shows how disordered our attachments the right word is attachments. Yeah, see, yeah, that's uh how disordered our attachments are to these things are good. So it's like the veil comes from like modesty as well, right? So it's like I have this disordered attachment to modesty that uh you know, I'm I'm missing the point here, kind of thing. Yeah, and that's that's a whole nother thing.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's a whole other cultural thing. We have to go back into the cultural and what was Paul really talking about and what they understand anyway, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So okay, so then like we're we're saying in the beginning, and like St. Teresa said, then obedience, it's more about communion with God first, conforming ourselves to his will, yeah, first and foremost, and then like that. So, how does that how does focusing on obedience to God help us navigate being respectful, being obedient to others, and inform how we should act toward people who should be respectful and obedience to us? I think like a lot of what you were saying earlier, um the common dignity that we all have as brothers and sisters in Christ, right? So, like, how does this all inform us? Starting, it starts at God and then it goes outward. Right.
SPEAKER_02:So, one, the position of authority is never to be used to control, and most definitely never be abused. I think that's where a lot of the problem comes is there has been abuse uh of authority and has been used as a control, right? The person in a place of authority must constantly check themselves and their motives for acting or non-acting. Yeah, the question is, are they seeking the common good? But that can be asked of ourselves as well. In obedience, am I am I willing to sacrifice my particular preference for the common good? Am I willing to do that? Or am I what do I want the larger community to sacrifice itself for my preference? So when it comes to the person in authority, are they afraid of exercising authority for the well-being of others or others, you know, of the other or others? And all of us, in all of this, we are approaching these duties prayerfully, or are we approaching these uh duties as jobs to be done? We have to ask ourselves whether, again, obedience or being in a position of authority, is it a prayerful approach and understanding of this? Every person, whether a subject or a person in a place of authority, is limited. And God is attempting to work through this vehicle with their limitations, yet it is through this converse with God that the person, whether subject or superior, is stretched in virtue, at least in the most optimal situation, right? If the person does not approach this with humility, then what happens is you get caught up in limitations and preferences, and then your obedience andor authority is no longer within the realm of the divine, but becomes secular and shallow, and then becomes a game of who wins and who loses, and that's not what this is about.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that man, that that just hits back home to um I already forgot his name, uh, but the the the guy who's like you you think so little of your brothers, oh my provincial, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Aloysius, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Like that's exactly what it goes back to. Like, are you you are you you're getting caught up in yourself, right? Versus approaching this um peripherally and stuff. Yeah, man, that's good. That's good. So I I feel like we we can probably go on. We'll go on forever. Um this is probably this is a good place to stop. So um do you think you could we could how do we say how do you think we could leave our listeners with something, maybe some questions for reflection or contemplation or prayer?
SPEAKER_02:When it comes to obedience, I think um, of course, bring it to prayer. And of course, if it's obedience and and if you find yourself reacting emotionally, that's a flag, a flag to to consider, right? Um, and you ask yourself, am I allowed, am I willing to allow God or the spirit or whoever is stirring up my heart, wherever that's coming from? Am I willing to let go of control? Is there an issue of control here? Is there an issue of security or insecurity here? And can I actually trust God? Can I have confidence in God in submitting myself to this obedience? Um also I would ask, you know, why am I resistant to obedience? Do I feel it's impinging on some freedom I believe that I have or some right that I believe that I have? And is that really true?
SPEAKER_01:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00:And probably the same thing when it comes to like the respect of a position or an office, to why do I feel that resistance?
SPEAKER_02:And these are things to be to pray about and think about. And again, I think sometimes a lot of it is emotional, and we have to be able, do we have the objectivity to go into ourselves and and really see like, oh yeah, I'm just I'm being emotional here. I'm reacting emotionally instead of logically, or this is something that I'm afraid of letting go for whatever reason. And those are the areas that we have to examine ourselves in, right? And if you're a position of authority, you have to be always be careful to ask yourself, am I doing this for the greater good for God? Or is this because this is what I want, right? This is my preference, and I'm trying to I'm trying to impose my preference or my want on people instead of really actually moving that aside and and sacrificing my want, right? And not allowing my office to tempt me into using my office to impose my want on someone or my preference on someone.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And I can I can think of like another reflection might be like when has in my life, when has saying yes, when that that consent to respect and obedience um to either God or another person in my life, um, when has it kind of deepened my freedom? Yes, right, and not diminished it. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I think part of it is you know, again, part of it is have you again, and growth is always painful. So it, you know, and it's also grace. Yeah, grace is not always beautiful. Sometimes grace is painful because it stretches us. But are you capable of going back and asking yourself, like, you know, now that I've been through it, now that I went through it, now that I'm past the difficult part, I actually see that it was something positive, something that helped me grow, something that helped me more objective, helped me to grow into a greater maturity, or or become less uh egotistical or less self-centered, to be more considerate. I mean, these are things that we we should ask ourselves.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, I'm gonna let let's uh let's wrap this up here before we go real fast, though, because I'm bad at this and um trying to grow in this. I want to just remind all our listeners, especially if they um are appreciating everything, um, that the Carmelites y'all have set up, or at least in your province, you guys have set up a way for people to make donations online. Um and so uh people can do this. The the link for it is in the show notes, and um you can do a one-time donation donation, you can do like a recurring monthly donation. So if out there, if you can uh please consider just uh supporting them financially. Um and if you're not able to, that's fine. Support us with prayer. Please, yeah, please, please, please support us with prayer. Prayer first, finances later. That's really the the proper order there. Um, but thank you, Father, for this, and uh, I love you, and I will talk to you later. Bye.
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