My Friend the Friar
A podcast where we learn about our faith and share what it takes to live a Catholic Christian life through conversations and contemplations with my friend the friar, a Discalced Carmelite Priest.
My Friend the Friar
Obedience and Mutual Surrender Transform Marriage (Season 3 Episode 43)
What if obedience in marriage isn’t about control, but about love that aims at the common good? We dig into the heart of a Catholic marriage through the living model of Christ and the Church—where respect means honoring dignity, headship means spiritual responsibility, and submission looks like strength poured out in service. The conversation gets real about how cultural baggage and family patterns confuse these ideas, and how grace in the sacrament empowers two people to move from me-versus-you into an honest, shared pursuit of holiness.
We unpack the daily work of mercy and justice—holding space for wounds without letting them harden into excuses. You’ll hear practical ways to communicate without escalating, to pause when emotions surge, and to replace accusation with clarity and care. We also talk about intimacy as the courage to be seen and received, how fear of rejection sabotages closeness, and why small habits—journaling, gratitude, daily examen, and simple prayer—retrain the heart to love well.
If trust has been damaged, we point to the shoreline scene of Christ and Peter: no shaming, just a sober question and an invitation to start again. That same grace can rebuild a home, brick by honest brick. We close with reflection prompts you can take to prayer: what you’re thankful for, where you hope to grow, and which hard topics deserve a gentle, patient return.
If this resonates, follow the show, share it with a friend who needs hope, and leave a review so more couples can find tools for covenant love. Your voice helps others choose healing over transaction and communion over keeping score.
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SPEAKER_02:Wait, did you hit record? Yes, peace be with you. And with your spirit. I don't know what's going on. Okay. I hate technology. I don't I don't understand. Why? Um, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the Friar Father, Steven Sanchez, a discalist, Carmelite, priest. Good evening, Father. Good evening. I feel like when we do this in the morning, I'm pretty sleepy still sometimes. And I need coffee. And I'm feeling pretty sleepy now. Because it's later at the end of the day. And then nothing is working the way it's supposed to work. Um golly. That's a snazzy shirt you got on, though.
SPEAKER_00:See, I thought I was gonna go out to the some warehouse and then we're gonna all meet. Oh, yeah. And do a podcast and drink beer and do shots and solve the problems of the world.
SPEAKER_02:I wish we were uh gonna do or solve problems of the world. Um my buddy Anthony, um, he just had a him and his wife just had another baby. They they are they have another baby girl, and um she was born yesterday morning.
SPEAKER_00:So no sleep for a few months.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. So all all of all of the plans of of getting a bunch of dudes together to talk about stuff just kind of out the window for a minute. We'll figure it out. A few months, a few months. Yeah. I feel like I've been really busy.
SPEAKER_00:Um I think I'm in. I'm in.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Since we last talked, it's it's lots been going on. Um but God is good. And so speaking of God, speaking of that guy, uh last time we were talking about respect and obedience, and I rightfully or wrongfully, um, I merged those two concepts together. Right.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_02:Um and it may it at least in my wee little brain, it makes sense to kind of put them together. Um and so today I wanted to uh we want to take our previous conversation about respect and obedience and try to um put it into the context of specifically marriage. Um when I was I guess when I was thinking about all these kinds of things, I thought about marriage specifically because it's one of those I love I love being married. Um there's something about it that it's so complicated, isn't it? Uh well, like you would know. Uh yeah. Father, I need you to tell me why my wife needs to be respectful and obedient to me. No. Um, no, it's it's such a complicated respect and obedience is complicated, and marriage is complicated, but I love it. And I love how it again, it's like one of those things where it doesn't quite mean what the world always thinks respect and obedience are supposed to look like. Um, at least in the context of like Christian marriage, like it there's nuance. I like the nuance of it. Um so anyway, so we often think we think about obedience in religious life, um, but like what does it mean when two people they vow to become one flesh? Right? Is obedience about domination, you know, one person over the other, or is it instead about like a mutual surrender to one another? Or somewhere in between? What do you think?
SPEAKER_00:So uh okay. I don't know if um people are gonna respond to this or not. Uh like m from a healthy understanding of what respect and obedience means, you would put it in the context of marriage. And so we have to start then with a healthy understanding of what marriage is supposed to be, right? Yeah, yeah. And so uh you can go back and listen to our podcast on the sacrament of service on marriage if you want to get a little bit more into that. Um I think the first thing that we have to do is again, in marriage, the ideal or the example that is held up to be imitated or uh the analogy that it that is held up is that between Christ and the church. So in the Christian marriage, well, in cra Catholic marriage, I shouldn't say Christian marriage, because for some Christians it's not a sacrament. So in Catholic marriage, it is a sacrament, and thereby in the marriage itself, there is the presence of Christ and his spirit that makes available to the couple grace to be able to live this new state because it's no longer me and you, it is now us in a larger community of faith and the impact that the marriage has on the faith. Okay, there's a lot of stuff that we can get into, but we don't have time to do that. So again, so now going back to obedience and respect within a Catholic sacramental marriage, now you go to the fact that the analogy that is made is just as Christ surrendered himself unto death for his spouse, for his bride, us, the church, then we, the church, are called to also to respond to that gift of self, the outpouring of the self, then we, the spouse, are called to give ourselves to Christ in that same outpouring. Okay, that's the analogy. That's that is the example, that's the ideal, that is what we're striving for. Now, when we come down to the two individuals, right, then respect and obedience is going to be tempered by their own familial formation, personal journeys, uh, cultures, um, ethnicities, all these different things that are that are part of the understanding of marriage, and how that comes into then this informs their understanding of the sacrament that they're engaging in, right? The the the engagement of the sacrament of marriage, because it is a continual sacrament that is present in the world through the marriage. Okay. Um, the misunderstanding of obedience and the misunderstanding of respect is a lot. And again, I was gonna say, my experience is if it's a good marriage, I really I just see the a good marriage and I see the relationship, right? But when everybody comes to talk to father about the marriage, they don't come to talk to father about my marriage is so wonderful and I'm so black. They don't come tall as that. They don't know, no, they come to talk to us about all the problems and the obstacles, the impediments, and da-da-da-da. So yeah, it's it's um that's part of what you know I hear, right? Um, the obedience, it can be if the person is if the person is not mature, then their understanding of obedience is you do what I say. And that's not what this is about. That is not the obedience of marriage. There has to be a continual dialogue, there has to be a continual, it's a partnership, right? And so, in the partnership, the obedience is what makes us a better couple, what makes us a better representation of this love of Christ for his church and the church for Christ. How do we do that? And so, of course, it's going to involve how we steward finances, how we steward the children that God blesses us with, how we steward our own relationship and growth, how we steward our spirituality. All those things then come into this relationship because love should be life-giving. Love should be something that is organic and dynamic in the relationship, which means both individuals are challenging each other to a deeper relationship with the Lord, a deeper understanding of the self and a growth of the self so that they grow together in that marriage. So do you think the would you well?
SPEAKER_02:And it's it's funny too, because it's like you can only really talk about things with broad brush strokes and and everything, every situation is so unique. So this is very unique, maybe not as applicable in in application as like I'm thinking in my head, but I'm trying to think, what is the root of like you're saying that whenever people come talk to you, it's always a problem, right? So the pro the root of those problems, do you think it comes from a misunderstanding of the outpouring of Jesus that we're called to imitate in marriage? Do you think that's where it starts? Or do you think it starts instead from like what you're saying, the cultural, familial kind of things that we carry, our baggage that we carry with us?
SPEAKER_00:Because the the grace is continuously available, it's not it's not measured out, it it is a grace that is there for us. It is a matter of whether we are capable of receiving the grace, understanding the grace, and making the grace, um, actuating the grace in our lives. Um and it's always then a problem in the individual's understanding of relationship, what a relationship is, how a relationship should be. And of course, then that means the person's own understanding of marriage. Because we all come to uh understand what relationship what relationships are about by the way that we have experienced them either in our formative years in our family, in our uh family of origin, or we've noticed we we culturally, ethnically, we uh get exposed to what we believe marriage should be. Right? Um, for example, nowadays, um whenever you see any type of film or a TV series or something, uh of the marriage, uh in the 50s, it was what the wife stayed home, the husband went to work, yeah. Leave it to beaver kind of stuff. Yeah, in a suit and a and a uh or whatever, right? And then later on it became more blue collar, but it's usually a white collar per situation. Mom was home in a a very pretty skirt and pearls and a very pretty lace apron and would vacuum and would cook and always had always made up and the hair done. And okay, and that was sort of like the image that was given. Like that's what's supposed to be. And he had little problems, your little moral resolutions at the end of the program or at the end of the movie and stuff, but um how real was that? I don't know. I think a lot of people suffered trying to copy the copy the ideal that was presented to him that was not real.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I guess what's what's funny is now if you were to uh look at today, then it's kind of the reverse. Marriage is this like sham and nobody is really married. You know what I mean? It's like uh this mutual agreement, but everybody just kind of does whatever they want to do anyway, kind of thing.
SPEAKER_00:But I think part of it too, I think is, and I think that's again, that is the the cultural um I guess a religious. I really haven't seen any good movies that have a good uh religious marriage, right? Or where religion or faith is part of the marriage. I mean, in fact, when it is, it's sometimes it's a problem. Religion is the problem. Yeah. And so it's not that. I mean, it's a matter of again, uh, but you know, a good healthy marriage is not it's not gonna sell. I mean, it's not you can you're not gonna make a movie. I mean, a lot of people are not gonna get a movie to go see that.
SPEAKER_02:Um, I think part of it, I guess, is so you think it starts with the cultural part? That's where the the misunderstanding probably starts, is from our familiar familial and cultural baggage.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right, right, and it's getting past that and trying to get past and I think part of the the growth or the life-giving aspect of the marriage is that Christ offers them the grace to be able to live this, but to be able to live this commitment of transparency and intimacy for the other, towards the other, and that both seek the other's growth and um development and maturity.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and and in a s not just in a worldly personal sense, but also in a spiritual sense, yeah, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Because for us, uh yeah, I should say that. See, it's my Catholic world. I just assume everybody understands that we're talking. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the ultimate good is, you know, to be with the Lord. Uh the ultimate good is to, you know, whatever you whatever word you use to express that situation, whether it's heaven or glory or whatever it might be, and the beatific vision, that is to be that the marriage is meant to help each person in the marriage to reach that final consummation and fullness of the self, which can only be found in God, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So would you say like that Christian obedience when we apply it? Well, so then so then what do you what what do you think obedience and respect really ask of us when you apply it but to to two spouses?
SPEAKER_00:The obedience and the respect, I think, the way I see it, the way I understand it, is that the obedience and the respect is to the common good, that is, to the common good of the of the couple. What is it's not what I want and what it's not what I want versus what you want. It's not I win and you lose. It's we both have wants, we both have needs, we both have desires, we're both wounded, we were both, you know, in need of redemption, sanation, uh, and completion. How do we obey and respect the call to that? And in that call to growth and progress in the relationship and in the relationship with Christ. Do we help each other, affirm each other, and even challenge each other with respect? Challenge each other to that growth, to look at the areas in our lives, the shadow, uh, the sin, whatever you want to call it, uh, to challenge ourselves to not allow that to be a shackle or an impediment to our intimacy, our transparency, our desire to love each other and to be with each other and to be you know each other's best friend, right? And to desire growth and development. But I think that's where the the the respect and obedience. I think sometimes what happens they can become caught in the ego, and it's about respecting me and obeying me. Like, well, okay. There should be some there should be some respect, uh, mutual respect because of the dignity of the persons. Now, obedience, what do you mean by that? By obedience, do you mean like I'm gonna be your mom or your dad and you can do what I say? Or yeah, or or is the obedience like, no, the obedience is to to listen to and to and to yield to the call of growth and maturity. I mean, we should obey that.
SPEAKER_02:And that that makes me think of uh the last time we were talking about Saint Teresa Vabila, how she was talking, or she said, and I forget the exact quote, something about how obedience is the quickest way to perfection or something like that, right? And it's but it's not obedience to the person per se, it's obedience to Christ first. Yes, and in obedience to Christ and imitating that outpouring, yeah, right, that's where we get that maturity, that's where we get that growth. And so also with like that outpouring, right, that we're called to imitate, not just to our each other's brother and sister in Christ, but is sp in this context specifically in marriage, part of Jesus' love and his outpouring is mercy and justice, right? So, like where does where does mercy and justice like meet up in marriage in this obedience in this respect?
SPEAKER_00:You're gonna get me to so much trouble. Um because I'm gonna say I'm gonna say stuff and they're not gonna want to hear what I have to say, right?
SPEAKER_02:Uh no, this is good. This is exactly everybody tuned in just to hear what you had to say. This is gonna be perfect.
SPEAKER_00:So the idea of mercy, okay, so all the virtues come into this relationship. So, in how mercy comes in into the relationship to be merciful. Um we can we can do a word study and go back to the original meaning of of what mercy is and how that was translated from the Hebrew to the Greek to the Latin and how we understand it now, but we don't have time for that. Um when we say mercy, it's not necessarily the biblical understanding of what mercy is. When we say mercy, we understand we usually want to convey the idea of patience with someone, uh to be able to um not hold a grudge, to be forgiving of them, right? That's usually what we mean by by mercy. And I would say in a relationship of marriage, part of the balance of a good relationship is that I need to be able to understand and empathize with my partner's point of view, with my partner's wounds, with my partner's history. And part of the mercy is I the patience and the virtue is that I can't demand that they be where I want them to be. The mercy is that I have to be patient and gently challenge when they're open to it. Again, go back to virtue, and ask them to grow and ask them to develop, and if they're capable of receiving that right, and the mercy is I need to just as I want my partner to be merciful to me and to be kind to me, and to understand my wounds, understand my difficulty in maturing and in growing in that relationship. Because it is, it's the gift of self to the other, which is always going to be very difficult because there's a lot of things that get involved in terms of fear of rejection and you know, a lot of very uh normal instinctual uh visceral reactions to that. Um but the mercy and the justice is this the mercy is that I have to be patient and kind with a person because of their wounds, and just because I they're just because they're not my wounds doesn't mean that I don't respect that, that I I have to be empathetic to their wound, to their difficulty. The justice part is even though I respect their difficulty or their wound or their um challenge uh or the impediment, the justice is, but that doesn't mean I give them an out. I mean the justice part is God is still calling us, calling you, calling me to wholeness, to sanation, to fullness, right? And if there's a misunderstanding between us, then you have to be careful as to not be judgmental and condemning. But the mercy and the justice is okay, I love you, but there is still this area of growth that has to happen in our relationship if our relationship is going to continue to grow and develop, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and gosh, that just sounds hard. Yes, like it is very, very hard. Right, because it's this what is what's right is right, and I'm called to the same rightness that you're called to. So, and and in the mercy, I'm called to the same mercy, but my mercy is not dependent on your mercy, correct. And my justice is not dependent on your justice, right? So it's so I don't have the ability to say, well, I will start treating you with respect or whatever when you start treating me with respect, right? I don't get that. No, it's not and that's that's not what it's about.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and that's because then that's tit for tat. And if it's tit for tat, then you're no longer in a marriage. You're no longer in a covenant, you're you're in a you're in a transactional relationship. You you you've turned your covenant, your marriage sacrament into a tran transaction.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. There's um, so I know like a lot of people now thinking about this, going back to like the word obedience, obey, or in the Bible, I love like you know, Paul says, submit to your husbands, right? And all that. And people get scared of that kind of language, they don't like that kind of language. There's this verse um in or I guess verses whatever, 1 Peter chapter 3. And I love it. I like this one even more, I think, than Paul's in Corinthians. Um, but it says, likewise, you wives, be submissive to your husbands, so that some husbands, though they do not obey the word, may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, when they see irreverent and chaste behavior. And I just I love that because it's kind of going to what we're talking about, this mercy and this justice. Like, don't go nagging your husband until he finally starts doing what Jesus wants him to do.
SPEAKER_00:You know, like it's interesting too that you you brought this this this scripture up because in that situation, okay, what situation is he addressing? So he as he's as Peter is addressing this community or this concern, right? So obviously the wife is a believer, the wife belongs to the community, and the husband is not. Yep. And so by your by your Christ-like example, that is a way of evangelizing him without necessarily hitting him over the head with a Bible, but that is the way you evangelize is by your conduct, by the way that you treat him. And that is the word. The word uh the the word is the example that you're giving of your Christ life, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. The the thing that's interesting to me to me in this too is that he's telling them to be submissive, and there's that word people don't like nowadays, right? But again, the marriage is this our our understanding of marriage is this outpouring of Jesus, right? Uh, this imitation of the outpouring of Jesus. And what does Jesus do? He in in a sense, he submits to the apostles, he washes their feet, right? Like he makes himself lower and tells them, like, if you're you you don't understand right what I'm doing, but you will, right? If you're not willing to be this, then you can't follow me, right?
SPEAKER_00:Right, and I think part of it too is you know the within Catholic spirituality, the husband is should be analogous to or should be a shadow of or an image of, whichever word you want to use, of Christ. And so he should be the head uh he should be the spiritual head of the household. Uh, again, not not not a not a Nazi Catholic, uh but as a spiritual head of the household to actually be empathetic and care for the spiritual growth and well-being of everyone in the family doesn't mean that again, you obey me because I'm your dad. Like, no, that's not what it's about. It's about are you leading the household? So here, so since the husband is not, the husband is not a spiritual head, he says, be submissive. Yes, this is difficult, yes, you have to be submissive to him. But by submitting to him, he sees your virtue, and by your virtuous life, he will come to understand. And when he comes to faith, then he will take the role as spiritual head as Christ in the model and image of Christ. And so, yeah, you have to be careful about some of this stuff. It's contextualized, you have to contextualize it and understand who is he talking to, why is he saying this, and what is the reason for this.
SPEAKER_02:And what's so good about it though, too, is uh, and not just about this, but the Bible period, um, is the timelessness of it. How many, how many quote unquote Catholic w marriages are out there where the man is not the the spiritual leader of the family? Right, and so so and and then how many marriages are out there where the the husband doesn't believe at all? Or the wife doesn't believe, but the husband does, right? Like this is applicable to our time, yes, period. And so that's what's so interesting to me about so it's like, yeah, you have to understand the context, but then you have to understand theologically that what mercy and what justice and what obedience and what submission is. Like, what are we actually being called to do in this moment in this marriage so that we can actually live it out? So like I can see then obedience, it becomes like an act of love. Yes. It's not about whose power like a power hierarchy, like you're saying. Yes. It's an act of love.
SPEAKER_00:And one of the things, for example, one of the scripture verses that I always used to sort of like I again. My my psychology education kind of All of a sudden the the flag, right? There's a flag, like uh when Christ says, um what is it? If you love me, you'll obey me, or something like that. You something like right, and I and it always there's I still have a visceral reaction whenever I read that because there's like oh that's not you know that's not healthy, that's not a healthy relationship, right? So like that's my first reaction to it. But what he means is in obeying Christ, what does it mean to obey Christ? If Christ then is as true God and true man as the example uh exemplar of that marriage between God and man, and the fullness of man is found in his marriage to God, to obey Christ is what is to actually listen to and respond to that greater design that I am called to. Um most creatures don't go against their nature. We're the only creature that goes against our nature, or what uh you know what we're meant to be, right? A dog is not gonna go against its dogness, a cat is not gonna go against its catness, but man can go against his humanity, his humaneness. And so the obedience is listen to and and respond to that which you are called to be, and the obedience to Christ. It's not just like, okay, you know, take up your cross, like and be nice, and you know, you know, be yeah, yeah, all those virtues and stuff, but those are all those are all accidentals or secondaries to the real the real caller, the real um being, and that is to to be like Christ, to be perfect in that charity, to be perfect in that obedience, to be perfect in that um life-giving way of being that gives life to others and is concerned for the life of others to to give others life.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it makes me think too of um that makes sense. Yeah, no, it does. It does. And it makes me think of how God's law isn't it God's law is designed to give you the fullness of life, yes, not to like keep you from doing something dumb necessarily. It's like, no, if you do this, you will have life in its fullness, right? And so that's why Jesus says, like when when the the one guy says, What's the greatest commandment? He says to love the Lord with all your heart, mind, and strength, right? Um it's you yeah, I love God, but if you don't obey God, then it's like what you're getting at is you're not internalizing and understanding and responding to it. Yeah, so that's yeah, that's how it's all resonating with me. So that's really interesting. Um it's really interesting. So, okay, so we talk a lot about we talk a lot, period. But we talk a lot about how you know we're always need in need of healing, right? Um, we're constantly being healed, we're constantly in need of healing. Um how do we honor our spouse while also honoring our own like boundaries and healing? Because like we just got done saying we we bring our own baggage into this, our own wounds, our own whatever, right? So, like, because sometimes the healing that we're that we are in need of are from our past, something we brought into the relationship, and sometimes it's from things we inflict on ourselves, right? Um, or things our spouses inflict on us, right? Right. So we're all wounded people, all relationships are messy. Um we've probably hurt our spouses, right? We've caused wounds to our spouses and they've hurt us. Yes. So it's like I think we should be willing to spend some time on this part, right? What you know, some of the wounds we inflict on each other aren't comparatively like that big of a deal. But I think a lot of the times that we the wounds that we can purposefully or are or accidentally inflict on our spouses and and to other just anyone in general, like in relationship, because relationship is messy. Sometimes these wounds are really deep and traumatic, right? So how do we I don't know, how do we navigate that fact? Because I don't want to be like the kind of person, stop demanding things of me. I need healing. You know what I mean? Like I need to do that. Oh no, no, no, no, no.
SPEAKER_00:You can't you can't stop the process, right? Because then you're never gonna do anything because you, you know, you're never gonna be, it's all a process. It's it's it's a continual growth. And that's part of it. Part of it is it's a continual growth and it's a continual work for each individual, and especially in a marriage, it's continual work for both persons. And so I think part of the maturity that is required, or the growth that is required to actually grow in marriage, or for the marriage to grow, um there has to be an ability to actually speak to one another as to what it is that you're experiencing and learning how to speak to each other without being accusatory, without being judging, without being condemning, and saying, okay, like okay, this is so um if I say something or do something that is hurtful unintentionally, right, I un unintentionally trigger you, and you are hurt by what I say or by what I do or don't say or don't do, and then your reaction is to become defensive or to be um offensive, right? You go on the off you attack.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, some people kind of jab back make that space.
SPEAKER_00:Right, you attack and go, okay, now that already, okay, that's already you're already talking about escalating the situation, right? Instead of the person that's like, okay, I need to walk away and think about this and come back and go, like, you know, this thing that you said or that you didn't say, or this thing that you did or didn't do, I felt whatever. Right. And the other person goes like, I didn't know, I'm sorry, I wasn't even paying attention that I said, or did I that was not at all my intention, and so to clear the air, right? But I think for a lot of people, it's the inability or the unwillingness to enter into that space of transparency and and and vulnerability, right? And that's that's where the growth is, and that's where the respect and the boundaries are. Because, for example, if someone is like, you know, um, I for me, personally, me, Steven, um, my love language is a is very tactile. I'm like, I'm from a very tactile family, and so some people get weirded out by it. Uh but that's whatever. Uh and so we're I'm very tactile, but also for me quality time one-on-one time, that that is very is again, is it the way that I show that I love somebody is by spending time with you one-on-one. That's for me, right? And for other people, right? It might be acts of service. For example, I have a very close friend of mine who I love very dearly. Um, and his love language is acts of service. So he's always doing stuff for me. And and you know, he's always doing stuff for me, and always doing stuff for me. And I and I try to respond, okay, like, okay, so he's not very tactile, so he doesn't like to be touched. So I respect that, right? We do spend time together, but um, I try to I try to do something for him. Like, okay, so if your language is to do acts of service, let me try to do acts of service for you, and just absolutely refuses, just does not allow when not allowing me to do anything. And I get very confused, right? And so, so part of it is okay. So, here we go back to this boundary stuff, right? This boundary uh and healing. And so I think part of it is respect that wherever he is, and say, okay, um, you know, I care for you. And so with words, I you know, I care for you, very important to me, da-da-da. And so I think in a relationship, that relationship that we have, I think can be awkward in that you want to respect their boundaries, you want to respect where they're at, but at the same time, you're going like, but you have to help me. And he's not, he's does not speak about his feelings. He that he he's a kind of classic dude, classic Mexican dude. Uh yeah, so right. So, like, like, okay, so I have a hard time trying to understand where we're at. And again, and the reason I bring this up is like it's very much like in any relationship, especially in a marriage where you're committed, some people cannot or do not know how to, they haven't learned how to name their emotions and what they're feeling. And it's it's a very uh scary thing for them because they don't know what they're feeling because they were never educated as to that. And when you try to have a conversation with somebody and you're trying to share where you're at and what you're feeling, and your desires, and the desire for intimacy and transparency, and the spiritual growth and the growth together in this uh life-giving relationship, if they don't have that capacity, then again, for you, you have to be careful about not demanding. You have to be again honoring goes back to the mercy, the mercy, right? And there's some healing that has to be there. And so, are you are both of you willing to work that? Are you willing to help this other person start feel safe enough to start trying to name things and define things and to help them? That again, that's part of the healing that has to happen as well. So each each individual is unique, but when you have two unique individuals trying to come together in a relationship of marriage, of intimacy and transparency, there's a lot of variables that come into play there. And there's a sometimes there's black boxes in that, like, I have absolutely no idea where the hell this is coming from, but this is the way I'm feeling, and I don't know why I'm feeling that way, and so, or why I feel, you know, and one of the big things that sometimes I find in individuals uh is there is uh a tendency to sabotage themselves, to sabotage their relationships or to sabotage their life, right? They just they don't believe that they're lovable, they don't believe that these are deserved joy or love or happiness or relationship or or the idea like everything is going too well. So I'm gonna I'm going to screw it up because I would rather screw it up than have it happen to me, you know, well unexpectedly. This way I I I'm in control. I'm in control of the destruction. Like, okay, that's pretty screwed up, but yeah, we'll need to do that.
SPEAKER_02:You see the logic, yeah. So so what's what's interesting is you're talking about all this um and how big of uh role intimacy um it is like and w we might can do a whole episode just on intimacy because it's it's part of this is we have this innate desire, we want to be known, we want to be seen, we want to be received, yeah, right. And um equally in in and that is part of our healing to become known, to become received, right? But we don't know how to receive either.
SPEAKER_00:And we're exactly and we don't know and we're afraid, afraid, and we're afraid of making it known that I want to be seen and I want to be received because we're we're afraid of rejection.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and well, because imagine if if I if I'm feeling a certain way and I go to my wife and I say, Hey, I'm feeling this way, and she does not respond well, right? I'm I don't ever want to tell her whatever again, you know, because like that blew up in my face, and so then that just everything cascades downhill. Yep. Right? Yep.
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, so and that's where the obedience to the call of development has to come in. Like I need to keep at this because this is what God is asking of us.
SPEAKER_02:So what so this this call to mutual submission and like what's something that people can do that can train their heart to train their mind to be more Christ-like, to be more merciful, to be more patient, to to uh to share themselves without fear of rejection, to receive the other person without rejecting them on accident, right? Like, what are maybe some of these things that we can do?
SPEAKER_00:First, it'd be a matter of becoming aware of those fears, right? Becoming aware of those wounds that we all have, because we're all we all suffer from the fall. So the consequences of original sin affect us all. Um and I would say that becoming aware of it, and secondly, I would say bring it to prayer. Just come to the Lord in quiet prayer and just say, I'm aware of this, this is a fear I have. And if you're afraid of being transparent, then you're gonna have a hard time see even praying about it because you don't want God to know about it, even though He knows. But it's a matter of really actually facing it and naming it so that it's not that um, as Jung would say, that the power of the shadow, the unspoken part of those things that we're afraid of and those things that that we don't want to face. Um, I would say you spend time. Yeah, because one of the things that John of the Cross talks about is yeah, he says eventually in the spiritual life, it is a matter of standing, standing naked before God. And by that he means completely and totally transparent, aware of all my deficiencies and of my gifts. To stand naked before God is to be me and to be unafraid and to know that I'm loved and that everything about me, those things that I worry about, my defects, my limitations, they do not affect his love for me. And that is very freeing. And then that helps me to actually understand, and this is maybe maybe this is part of the the psyche of the modern man. They tend to fall into the trap of equating brokenness, woundedness, sinfulness, failures as definitive of who they are. And that's the lie. That's the lie of the enemy. My failures do not define me, my sin does not define me, my addictions, my obsessions do not define me. What defines me is that Jesus Christ suffered and died for me because God the Father loves me and I am his beloved child. That is what defines me.
SPEAKER_02:So is there something that something we can do? Um like you know the the whole phrase like fake it till you make it, right? Like, or or exercise, like do you just go keep doing the thing until it kind of becomes second nature?
SPEAKER_00:Is there something it becomes real? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So can is there something we can do that can help us to uh either in prayer or or toward our spouse that can help us fight against the lies or to learn to receive the other person? Um not necessarily without necessarily like going to counseling. I think counseling is great. It is. Um but I think having a good, open, healthy relationship with your spouse or your best friend or whatever, those are equally as helpful because you there's someone who is receiving you. Right.
SPEAKER_00:And I think it goes back to the whole idea of the the healthier, the healthier you get, the healthier your relationships get, the healthier your social circles get, the health everything just starts getting better and better the healthier you get. And I think one of the things is to I would say probably the easiest thing would be just journal. Just journal everything, just get it all out on paper, you know, just vomit it all out on paper and and just keep doing it's very cathartic to do that. I don't I don't journal. I can't, I don't have the discipline because I do it all in my head of being the introvert that I am. I I do all my processing in my head, in my heart. Yeah. Um, so I don't do that. But a lot of people find it very helpful to be able to actually get it out, get it out, just to get it out. And so sometimes even if you if you're somebody that tends to have to talk it out, then yeah, go talk it out with a friend or just talk it out by yourself out with God in the chapel or out in the out in the woods and just talk it out. Just get comfortable with who you are and where you are, and and know that God desires your well-being and your fullness and your wholeness, and that he wants your healing. I mean, that's his desire. That's the whole ministry of Jesus on history of his earthly ministry, is healing. I mean, he wants us to be whole.
SPEAKER_02:Is it is it helpful to do something like I don't know, set up a like a uh where you I'm gonna tell my wife something and she doesn't need to respond. All she goes is like, okay, I love you. And that's it, like that's the end, right? So it's like learning to just receive the thing without engaging it, right? Or you know what I mean? Is there things like that that you've because I'm I'm thinking if I go talk to God, God's just gonna receive it. He's not gonna, I hope, he's not gonna smite me on the spot. But you know what I mean? Like it so are there things that we can do to help us in that maturity of receiving the other person and helping them to feel safe in whatever it is they're trying to do.
SPEAKER_00:As you said, this is messy. Relationships are messy, and it takes practice, practice, practice, practice at you know, uh not giving up and just keep practice and okay, and so there's a misunderstanding, there's a misconception, I was totally wrong. So, okay, let's let's pick up uh and let's try again. And so I think part of it is giving yourself permission, again, giving yourself permission to make mistakes and allowing the other person in the relationship to make mistakes. You know, everybody's learning. This is not something you just you just fall into. It it is a learning experience and it's an experience of growth. And and and in all healing, there's always going to be pain because healing is painful. And so being able to accompany each other and to be patient with each other in that healing process.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Something that I that I've um been doing for I guess as long as I can remember now in my marriage is whenever there's something that's frustrating me, I go talk to God about it first. Yes, it's always good to be. Yeah. And then the then before I well, and every day, literally every day, um, because I do like an examination of conscience or con Conscience, yes. Conscience. Yeah, a little um it's late. Uh every yeah, every day kind of thing. Um, but I make it a point to try to uh or I've made it a point, so I do this every day to take a uh a disposition of gratitude. And so I try to find something that I'm grateful for in that day from my wife or my daughter, right? Kind of thing. So something that did it could be something as simple as like a food thing that they gave me or something like that. Like anything.
SPEAKER_00:I think a an important tool or technique or word of caution is do not, do not, do not engage in discussion if you are feeling emotional. Because nothing gets across other than the emotion. And so if you're feeling angry or hurt or whatever, wait until that is passed. And if it takes a while, then wait until it's passed. Because if you start speaking and then you start speaking from your emotion, nothing is gonna get done. Nothing is if in fact it you the relationship may go backwards, uh, step take take steps back because no matter what you're doing, the other person does not hear anything that you're saying. All that is registering to them is your emotion, and that is not helpful.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So what so let's say one person in the relationship is more mature or or or more healthy than the other, right? How do they well, how does in that situation, or maybe either maybe you're the more healthy, maybe you're the least healthy. How do you how do you avoid weaponizing things that are good, like that you you're in a better place, or scripture, like how do you avoid weaponizing things like that, or you know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_00:When you're working with the with your spouse the idea of weaponizing is already a very negative sign. You should not, if you're tempted to weaponize, to feel that you're better, or to feel like, aha, yeah, I'm going to win. That is that's wrong. That that's a bad attitude, and there needs to be uh an attitude check on that. Like, why would you feel why would you be tempted to feel that you're superior or that you're winning or you're going to win or that you're better? Like, no, those are those are those are not helpful or good or positive.
SPEAKER_02:Uh so probably just a sign that you need to like you're saying, check something about yourself. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. What about like when when because a lot of us have relationships um that have like I was saying at the beginning, we have these wounds that we've inflicted on one another, kind of thing, and we're trying to heal. But how how and I know this is a very careful thing, like like right, there's always this caution here, but how do we practice this mutual respect, obedience, mercy, justice with our spouse when that trust in the relationship has been damaged?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that is very hard.
SPEAKER_02:Um because just because just because our they've betrayed our trust or hurt or trust or whatever, it doesn't mean again, it's not this transactional thing. I don't now have the right to go do whatever.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, but I think again, it goes back to the unique history and perspective of the individual in terms of being able to forgive and able to start again or to rebuild trust, right? Um when it comes to trust, trust is something that you give someone, it is a gift that you give someone. If they break that trust or if they wound that trust, it's not something that they do not automatically have a right to it again. They have to prove themselves to be trustworthy. They have to prove themselves that they're they are capable of maintaining and keeping the troth or the truth or the trust. Um, and again, it has to do with how sensitive the other person is, how wounded the other person is, how sensitive or wounded is the person that that wounded or or broke or wounded the trust. I mean, there's a lot of things that have to go on there. Uh, and it's a matter of, again, it should not be a zero-sum game. It's not a matter of, okay, you lose, I win. No, it has nothing to do with that. It's like, okay, so why do I have this thing about trust? And why am I acting or reacting this way? It's a matter of, you know, really do some deep diving, and there's probably some room for healing there as well. Um and the respect, again, going back to respect again, so the respect of that sensitive sensitive area, that wound, right? And so I would take a uni it would be, I can't I don't want to say there's a general approach to it, because it really depends on the two individuals and their understanding of trust and what they expect and what their expectations are. Um, and again, their history and their history of relationships um and fears and traumas and stuff like that, right?
SPEAKER_02:Well, in in in a Catholic sense, in marriage, and part of why learning to rebuild that trust and and maybe how obedience and and God's grace can be a part of rebuilding that brokenness in marriage is we we don't for us uh marriage is it's forever, right? Like it's till death do us part.
SPEAKER_00:It's not forever, it's till death.
SPEAKER_02:No, sorry, sorry, yeah, till till death do us part. So we're not Mormons. Um yeah. So we um I would say we don't get a we don't get a at a we don't get to just give up and walk away.
SPEAKER_00:No. I've I think one of the I think key elements to look at would be Christ's um reconciliation with Peter after the resurrection. Right. So after be after Peter betrayed him and denied him three times. And you know, and Christ is in this dialogue, a very intimate setting. It's yeah, it's you know, dark, they're sitting by a camp. They sit around the fire. Yeah. Uh he's just fed them uh again another sign of intimacy and communion. And then they're in they're in the dialogue of like, okay, do you love me? Right. And so like, damn. Why did you have to go there? So yeah, and there's a sign, and uh, there's there's an out there, there's something there you can look at and go like, okay. There it's respectful. See, Christ was not accusatory, he did not accuse him, he did not bring in and throw it in his face. Like, do you love me? And do you and basically saying, Do you understand what love is? And are you willing to grow in what that means, right? And that understanding. So yeah, it's possible. Um but again, you know, Peter Peter did not have a right to demand Jesus to trust him because he had wounded that trust. But it was Christ who basically offers him again that relationship of intimacy, but asks him, Do you understand what this means?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, for for myself, it's always been helpful to reflect on um, you know, I am the I am an image bearer of God, so is my wife. Right? I am broken, so is my wife. God has been infinitely patient patient with me, right? And uh in going to Corinthians now, like she's she's uh I'm supposed to be obedient. The way like Christ is, right? To death. Right. So it's almost that scandalizing love that it is like so shocking. Like, what are you doing? Why do you still love me? Right. Right. And and so trying to take that approach has always been helpful when it comes to healing. Right. I think and and and allowing God's grace to to enter into those wounded places. You know. It's good. I told you I love I love being married. I love uh I love my wife and my family. I think it's the it's been uh like the truest sense of the word, it is awesome to be married, but it's hard. So um okay, how about some uh reflection kind of questions? Like what are what are some things that we can all just kind of take to prayer or ponder if we're if we're married.
SPEAKER_00:I would say in in any relationship, especially marriage, in any relationship. What are those things in the relationship that you're most thankful for? What are those things in the relationship that you wish could be better? What are those things in the relationship that you find difficult? And really just personally just think about those and ask yourself, so why do I really am I happy about this? Why does this make me joyful? What is it about this that makes me joyful, right? And to find the root cause of that, where that's connected to and why it makes you feel whatever it is that makes you feel, right? And to be able to share that and to be able to um thank God and thank your partner for that. And then when it comes to the other things, the areas of growth, I think that's where we would go to next is the the being able to come together in without being accusatory or or condemning. These are some areas of some areas of growth that I would like us to see if we can approach or we can even just talk about it first without even having any action items, right? But just to even talk about how this makes us feel or perceive or to understand the relationship, how this how this colors the relationship that I have, right? And then finally, you know, those difficult areas. Um and I put it last because I think if you establish appreciation first, and if in appreciation you ask for growth, and the growth is appreciated because it's coming from a place of love, then you can talk about the difficult difficult things later uh because it's you've already established this um healthy appreciation, right? And the desire for growth and the difficult areas. Okay. Uh, and then again, being able to examine ourselves why they're difficult. What is it, my is it an expectation that I have? Is it a is it a an impossible expectation? Where did those metrics come from? There's a lot of you know things that they can get involved in, but I think it's just starting with really being thankful and appreciative of the good and the joy and the blessing that is present. And I think if you start from there, everything else kind of grows from from that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I I think it's it's also helpful to um pay a little bit of attention in in the the log in your own eye before you s start looking at the spec in your spouses.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Well, before we wrap it up, um, I do want to remind everybody that you Carmelites have figured out, you friars have figured out a way for people to make some donations online. Yes. Um and so the the link is down in the show notes, and um, you can do one-time donations, you can do monthly donations. Um so if you uh peripherally, please would consider supporting them financially. And if you're unable to, it's absolutely fine. Uh, please support them with your prayers. Yes, that's most important. Start with prayer first, always. Yes. All right, Father. Thank you for this. I love you. Love you. Um, have a good night. Thanks. Yeah, and uh for everyone who joined us, thanks for joining us, and we will see you next time. God bless. Thank you. God bless you.
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