Praying with Scripture: Lectio Divina (Season 4 Episode 1)

Want a prayer life that feels like a real relationship, not a checklist? We dive into Lectio Divina—sacred reading—as a simple, time-tested way to hear God through scripture and grow in freedom. Rather than racing through chapters or playing Bible roulette, we slow down with a short passage, repeat it, listen for the phrase that stirs the heart, talk with God about it, and then rest in his presence. This isn’t study or analysis; it’s encounter with the living Word who gently convicts, comforts, and guides.

We trace how the Church has heard God in scripture from the earliest communities through the Desert Fathers, Benedictine steadiness, and Carmelite contemplation. Along the way, we clarify what “inspired” means, why the canon matters, and how the Gospels shape every reading. Then we get practical: posture, breathing, choosing the day’s Gospel, repeating a few lines, journaling, and handling distractions without shame. You’ll hear a live walkthrough of Galatians 4–5 that shows how a single phrase—“stand firm” or “do not take the yoke of slavery”—can become a personal word that leads to concrete change.

If your mind wanders, you’re normal. If prayer feels dry, that silence can still be holy ground. We unpack the “ear of the heart,” how to notice interior movements, and why peaceful rest in God often bears the deepest fruit. Over time, Lectio Divina shapes identity: truth replaces cultural noise, freedom grows where fear once ruled, and trust deepens as you return to the same verses that quietly anchor you. Whether you’re new to prayer or seasoned in contemplation, this gentle rhythm can steady your days and open space for real conversation with God.

Subscribe or follow, share this with a friend who needs a simple way to pray, and leave a review telling us which verse keeps calling you back. Your words help others discover the path to a freer, quieter, more faithful life.

Other Prayer Episodes

• Prayer: Building a Relationship with God Beyond Words (Season 2 Episode 40)
• Relationship is at the Core of Religion (Season 2 Episode 35)
• Passing on the Faith: A Dialogue on Community, Relationship, and Personal Growth (Season 2 Episode 32)
• Navigating and Deepening Your Relationship with God (Season 2 Episode 18)
• Our Relationship with God (Season 2 Episode 8)
• Relationship (Season 1 Episode 7)

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome, Storms, And House Chaos
• 1:46 Why Prayer Is Relationship
• 4:22 How God Speaks Through Scripture
• 8:40 Mass Etiquette And Distraction
• 12:21 Scripture As Inspired Word And Canon
• 17:06 Roots Of Lectio Divina
• 21:35 Listening With The Ear Of The Heart
• 25:12 The Four Movements Of Lectio
• 28:19 Guided Lectio On Galatians 4–5
• 33:24 From Phrase To Prayer To Action
• 37:08 Practical How-To And Common Hurdles
• 42:10 Distractions, Dryness, And Peace
• 45:19 Carmelite And Benedictine Threads
• 48:08 How Prayer Transforms Us
• 51:04 Thanks, Support, And Closing

Transcript

SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Welcome to the My Friend the Friar Podcast, and thanks for listening. If you like My Friend the Friar and want to support us, please consider subscribing or following us if you haven't already done so. And if you found us on YouTube, then don't forget to click the notification bell when you subscribe so you'll be notified of new episodes when they release. Thanks again and God bless. Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining me and my friend the Friar, Father Stephen Sanchez, a discalist, Carmelite Priest. Good afternoon, Father. Good afternoon. Man, the thunder starting to pick up. I hope it doesn't. I hope it's only like half an inch yet, because I don't want to deal with the house flooding right now. Um and the toilet being disassembled and gross and everything. Oh my goodness. Yeah. So father and I are uh well I father's always busy, but I'm taking a break from home repairs to record an episode because we gotta get it in when we can get it in. Um cool. How's your Sunday been? It's Sunday for us right now.

SPEAKER_00: 1:13

Busy? Busy, busy, yeah. Uh nine and eleven o'clock, man, and woke up at like two in the morning and couldn't back to school back to sleep. So it it's already a long day for me.

SPEAKER_01: 1:24

So yeah, I don't I don't think any of us slept really well today either. So um, or last night, I guess. So such is life, such is life. Oh, I just that was a big lightning and thunder. I don't know if you can hear it on the microphone. Um, this mic is pretty good at not picking stuff up in the background, so we will we will see. All right, today we are going to uh be talking about Lectio Divina. So more prayer conversation, and this is prayer and scripture, and so I guess um this is the the thought here is that um God speaks to us through scripture, right? We were we were talking the other day about um prayer, and now I don't know if this one if we're gonna release in order whenever we do release these, if this is gonna come before our a mental prayer one or after. But in that episode, we were uh saying as we normally do in the nine other episodes on prayer and relationship that we have, that um prayer prayer is relationship, and so you can't just talk to God, you gotta be listening to God too, right? And so God speaks to us in the most well, I don't know if it's the most clear, um most powerful, it's it's it's definitely a big one as God speaks to us through scripture. Yes, and so I think that um you know a lot of people have uh a deep hunger for relationship with God. This the catechism even talks about this too, right? We're made for relation, and so we're searching for God in our lives. And so one of the kind of questions that we asked in the other episode is like, how do we really deepen our relationship? How do we, you know, like I might say, yeah, I want a relationship with God, but then how do I do that? And I liked that in that episode, um, no spoilers, I guess, but you were you're saying, well, be interested in God, like start by actually being interested. Um, and so this is a good way to be interested and to hear God's voice. So um, okay, so Lectio Divina, sacred reading, right, is what it means. This is an old practice. Um, so maybe you can get us started with like what is Lectio Divina? Um, how does it differ from just like re opening up the Bible and just reading it?

SPEAKER_00: 4:12

Yeah, like Bible roulette. Yeah. Some people play a Bible roulette. Yeah. Um so the question is, or this is the response to that question about whether God speaks to us or not, and what people understand that to mean that God speaks to us. And for us as disciples, as Catholic Christians, one of the most important ways that God speaks to us is through the sacred scriptures. Um, He speaks to us through creation, He can speak to us through other persons, He can inspire us or speak to us in those God moments when we read certain books or uh somebody says something in a homily or a sermon, these are can be God moments where all of a sudden we feel convicted or there's an illumination, some enlightenment. So all those are ways in which God speaks to us. But I think sometimes people think when we talk about God speaking, I think some some people bel uh understand that to mean that God speaks to us with a voice, with God's voice, whatever that is, right? Right. Um and so the question is does God have a voice? Well, yes, but um for us that voice that word he has spoken to us is the word uh made flesh, is Christ, is the logos. That's the word that has been speak spoken to us in a definitive way. And that has to do with our salvation, our redemption, and this definitive word took flesh in Jesus Christ. And this is then the way that God speaks to us. I mean, it is through the gospels, and it's through understanding scripture from the lens of the gospel. So I think that's that's part of that is the way that God speaks is through sacred scripture, scripture that has been inspired by the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_01: 6:14

So at so kind of again, the root of all of this is goes back to relationship, of course. Um and I think a lot of people like I'm starting to have a couple thoughts, so I'm I might go a little off script here with some of my questions in a minute, but a lot of my um like a lot of people they do want to know, like, can I actually have a relationship with God? I I know like especially when you're young, you think of God as some far-off thing, and if that's never matured, then as you grow up, God is still just this far-off thing or a concept, you know.

SPEAKER_00: 6:53

Um abstraction.

SPEAKER_01: 6:55

Yeah, but we really do um, you know, I I think like I was saying, people are longing for a relationship. So how do we can it is it really possible, right? Is kind of the the question that people have. And if it's possible, how do I do that?

SPEAKER_00: 7:16

Well, yeah, we can have a relationship with God. So yes, we can have a relationship. Um, but going back to relationships again, it's a matter of uh how do I relate? How important are relationships to me, my uh my attitude towards my understanding of what relationships are, has a lot to do with it as well. But I think uh generally speaking, uh this relationship is very possible. This is a relationship that God desires to have with us. This is one of the reasons that the Lord uh took upon our humanity. He wanted to relate to us in a deeper way. But God also knows that we're sensory creatures, and so I think because we are sensory creatures, it's important that we uh if we're entering into this relationship and we're beginning a relationship with God, then I think it's very important that we allow ourselves, we give ourselves permission to use our senses, right? And so one of the first things I would say would be to either read scripture, listen to scripture, uh, get interested in scripture, because these are the sacred writings inspired by God the Holy Spirit concerning our salvation history, which comes to its culmination in the incarnation and the appearance of Jesus in human history and the the gospels that have been handed on to us through apostolic tradition and and those things that the apostles have taught us about the Lord. So reading the Bible, being aware of sacred scripture, I think that is a very concrete way that we can begin to enter into this relationship with God.

SPEAKER_01: 8:52

Yeah. Um St. Jerome said, like uh ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ. Yes. Um so okay, so I've got two. One is one is a little far off. I'm I'm gonna scroll here for a second because I just thought of something, um, but I'm gonna come back to scripture specifically because obviously that's what that's the topic at hand. Okay, um, earlier you had said um that we might encounter God in uh uh things like sermons. Um I'm gonna just kind of ex throw some things out there um and you can agree or disagree, but obviously sacramentals, um the sacraments themselves, like the official ones, um right, one another going to mass, obviously. Um I think people need to be mindful of the fact that people experience and come into relationship through to God through one another, through us, because it doesn't it doesn't mean that I can go do whatever I want to do or say what I want to say, and that's the voice of God, you know. Um but um so the other day we were at mass, and I know I was I was joking the other day, and my favorite thing to do is complain about people at Mass, God's people, right? Um, but there was a family who were the they were literally like not just the kids, like the whole family was like watching videos on their phone during mass and talking in a conversational tone, like voice kind of level. And we were discussing this after mass, my wife and I, and we were like, okay, what is the appropriate thing to do? Because um, like, is it appropriate would it even be appropriate for like the priest to stop mass and say, can y'all please stop that? You know what I mean? Or and if it's not appropriate for him, would it be appropriate for us to say that in the middle of mass, or should we just pray for them instead? Right? Um, that's that's my tangent, my squirrel thing, because we're talking about how we encounter God. That's a tough one, I think.

SPEAKER_00: 11:08

Yeah, I mean it it depends. Um if they're if they're reading the scripture in their phone, that's one thing.

SPEAKER_01: 11:16

Oh, it was like YouTube videos, man.

SPEAKER_00: 11:18

It was oh yeah, no, yeah. Uh that that would be a no. The usher I the ushers should take care of that or address that, or uh why bother coming to mass? I mean, yeah, that is if you're not even there mentally, um, why there? Why be there? Yeah. So uh anyway, but yeah, I would say it's it's I would it's something up for the usher to say or something for the priest to say, the celebrant, yeah. It can be very distracting uh when you're in the altar. When you're in the altar, you can see everything. So it's yeah, you have like, okay. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:53

So for for us and the the us fellow parishioners, is it best to just be quiet, like I said, and pray for them, or is it okay to say something?

SPEAKER_00: 12:06

I wouldn't. I mean, really, I mean, if it's let's see if they're using prudence and temperance. Um if they're not open to if they're not open to if they don't understand the sacred space that they're finding themselves in, you talking to them about it's not gonna help. Yeah, it's a lack of catechesis, and so yeah. Yeah, I'm just yeah, and I'm just saying, right, because it's like how in terms of in terms of it bothering other people, I think that would be the thing, like, okay, like this is a very distracting tour, but if other people, could you step outside if you need to use your phone? Or could you be in the back in the cry room or something?

SPEAKER_01: 12:42

Or yeah, just thinking about because you you would hate to be the experience that made them just completely stop coming to church. Right, right, right. Um, but also it's very important what we're doing there, so it's not like you just get on your phone. Anyway, sorry, tangent over. Like I said, it was it was something we were discussing, and since we're discussing relationship with God and God encounters, um, all right, back on topic though, scripture. Um the so in New Testament scripture, Paul uh at least is the one who comes to mind, but references scripture often and the importance of scripture, but he's not talking about his own writings, he's talking about the what we call the Old Testament scripture, like the Torah, right? That's what he's referring to when he's talking about scripture. And so my question is duh did the Jewish people consider scripture the the voice of God, the word of God, or did they just consider it like a written-down tradition?

SPEAKER_00: 13:51

They considered it um inspired, inspired writing, so of course, then inspired by God, right, or uh inspired authors, but they um they didn't make the distinction between God the Holy Spirit and and Yahweh, right? It was it was all God, just God. So um it was inspired, the prophets were inspired. Uh in fact, the whole scripture speaks about being messengers of God, being sent by God, and how people didn't pay attention to them. So, yeah, that they're inspired in their they the Jews had their own canon of scripture, and so that means that if it they have a canon of scripture, then that means that this is this is considered inspired, and then they had commentaries on the scripture, so that was a separate work, commentaries on the scripture, so yeah, they believed it to be inspired in a way in which God was speaking to them.

SPEAKER_01: 14:49

Okay, so so maybe not to the same degree that Christians consider it the word of God. Or correct. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Just I'm just thinking about it because I know um like I have friends who think that the Bible is helpful, right? But it is not necessarily because it is just a and I'm kind of paraphrasing, just a book that's been written by people and been translated and modified over time and stuff like that, then it can't be really like the authoritative word of God. It is just a helpful thing for you to know God, right? And and so anyway, I'm I'm just kind of thinking of all those thoughts right now, wondering like how do when did the the Christian church I know like in like what was it like 382, 385, something like that, when they said here is the canon of scripture, the canon, right? But when did they when did they all kind of set back and go, wait a minute? Because they obviously the church started with oral tradition and um in-person teaching and stuff like that. So at what point in time did they start going, this is the word of God? And I don't mean the New Testament, yeah. Well, and the Old Testament, right? Like when did they not just when did they lump them together, but when did they say this isn't just useful for teaching, this isn't just inspired, but this is the word of God itself.

SPEAKER_00: 16:31

Well, you have to remember that we come from that the Jewish tradition. So the early church fathers, a lot of the early community members were um members of Judaism and eventually leave Judaism to embrace Christ the Messiah. And so that comes with that tradition of the inspired word, right? So there is always that feeling, understanding that the scriptures are inspired and thereby God's word. Um when it comes to artist, the new testament, that was always referred to as the teachings of the apostles. If you go back to the Didic, they talk about uh celebrating the Eucharist, reading this, reading the scriptures, which is Old Testament, and uh the teachings of the apostles, which are which is the New Testament. And then the closing of the canon then of the New Testament, then for us was that correct. This is this is all that's necessary for our salvation, and these are these are the these are the those which were approved of and by the apostles, the apostolic tradition, and that's what closes the canon. Okay so that's that is um we've always considered it to be inspired by God, to be God's word. Now what you're talking about is you know there's there's subtle there's subtle differences of, you know, is this is this, you know, am I gonna be a fundamentalist and it has to be every single word, then uh if if it's not written in the if it's not in the scripture, then it's not true.

SPEAKER_01: 18:07

That's not that's not oh yeah, I see, yeah, I see where you're going to because there's obviously well, I say obviously Catholic teaching, obviously, there is there are layers to scripture. It's art, it's poetic, it's it's you know, all sorts of stuff, right? Yeah, okay. Yes, yeah, so okay, no, that's good. Sometimes it's and I think that little thought process right there shows how easy it is to kind of get lost in your thought if you don't have the good catechesis to like come back to and like re-anchor, and you just end up wandering off in left field wondering what happened. Um anyway, tangent over, but sticking with history, yeah, squirrel. Um okay, so so uh church history, Lectio Divina. Um, this is this is an old practice. How old is this? Like, where does this start?

SPEAKER_00: 18:57

The roots uh for Lectio Divina, the roots go back to the desert uh fathers, it goes back to um repeating scripture, just like just like in Judaism, you will repeat scripture and sometimes you'll you'll you'll repeat the psalm over and over again. Sort of the same thing was part of our uh we bring that into our tradition as a part of the desert fathers, uh was not just Old Testament but New Testament, and so repeating scripture uh was part of that keeping scripture in our tongue, you know, praising praying God and unceasingly. And then eventually what happens is then this becomes this um tradition of praying over the scripture, praying with the scripture, and it goes back to like the Jesus prayer. The Jesus prayer is um Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, and just sort of repeating that as a mantra. To center yourself, right? Recently, in recent church history, it was called centering prayer, and it's not new age. Centering prayer goes back to the desert. This is like the repetition of a scripture phrase to center you, your attention, uh, your focus, right? And so this is part of that. And so then eventually what happened was then people praying with the scriptures, just praying over them, praying with them, repeating them, and this is how then this Lexio Divina developed, right? So Lexio Divina, then, in the Catholic world, so in Europe, you know, and yeah, it's kind of a rediscovery, isn't it? Right. Yeah. So before Luther in Europe and in the East, there's this tradition, right? So Lectio Divina then was understood to be part of a greater understanding of scripture, which is Lex Lectio Continua or continuous reading, and where you would read the scriptures over and over again. So you begin with Genesis, go all the way to Revelation, start again. So you always were familiar with scripture, you're always continuously familiar with scripture. And within that, you have the Lexio Divina, which was usually the scriptures for the liturgies or the uh yeah, the the times of Christmas and Easter, the the privileged times, the privileged seasons. Um, so and another thing to remember too is that in this Catholic world, there were lots of things that were taken for granted. So, this is one of the things that was taken for granted is this continuous reading of scripture. And so it's important for us to remember that was something that most spiritual writers in in before before the 1500s, that was something that they just understood that you were doing. They just assumed that you were reading scripture, they assumed you had a sacramental life, they assumed uh you were practicing some sort of asceticism, they assumed uh you had, you know, you're going to church on Sundays and going to confession. And all these were assumptions that they made because it was a very, very Catholic world. Yeah. Um, and so this is part of that is this Lectio Divina. So it is rediscovered in the Middle Ages after it got lost in the dark ages, uh, when civilization collapsed. It was a rediscovery. It was a term that was used in later Middle Ages, Lectio Divina, right? And so again, this is again part of that movement that we talked about before where Devozia Moderna was a rediscovery of an ancient way of prayer. And as I said before, it was based upon the Desert Fathers' practice of the Jesus prayer. So one of the things to remember about too is that why is it a rediscovery? Um after the fall of the Roman Empire, here we go, nerds stood out just for a second. So after the fall of the Roman Empire, whether we had the early Middle Ages or what they used to call the Dark Ages, which is no longer politically correct. I don't know why. But okay, so that's from the early 400s to the 900s. So then you have the this, the dark, right? So the civilization has collapsed, Roman Empire has collapsed. Uh, you have this, then you have in Europe, you have the 100 years' war between England and France from 1337 to 1453. You have the return of the bubonic plague in the 1300s that was originally had come in the 700s and earlier than that as well. You have then this development of the modern devotion in the Netherlands that spread to Germany, France, and basically is a uh a rediscovery of discipleship, what it meant to live uh a life of discipleship and virtue and stuff, right? So, and this is then where Lexia Div Lectio Divina began to take root in his desire to grow into in our discipleship, re regain what that meant is this this slow contemplative praying with scripture. And so because we are a unit of body, soul, soul, body, often our concerns, our relationships, our hopes and aspirations will manifest themselves with our meditations on the scripture, because that's where we are in our life. And so we bring it to scripture. These are things that we're concerned with, and so we come to scripture, and scripture begins to give us light and reveal God's word in the situation or circumstance we find ourselves. So um, one of the things in part of this Lectio, Lectio Divino, is to cultivate the ear of the heart to be able to become more aware, listen, have a listening heart, listen to our own memories, uh, be aware of our situations, our circumstances, and how this word of God gives light to us in our circumstance and situation in our history. And then again, in the present events of our life, so that we can apply the scripture to our the present event of my life as it unfolds. So then the reason for this relationship, going back to the relationship with God through scripture, we experience in Christ reaching out to us through the scripture and through our own memories, our own personal salvation history. And so then this personal salvation history enlightened by Christ then becomes my salvation history as it unfolds.

SPEAKER_01: 25:32

Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So no, that's good. So like I can I can see Lectio Divina It's really interesting. It's that slow prayer is like spending time with someone. So it's like being in a relationship, it's like hanging out almost. Um so then all right, so what is what is what does it mean to listen with the ear of the heart or a kind of thing that you're saying? Like, can you elaborate on that? And have you have you seen where Lectio Divina may be in your own life or just one of your directees' lives where it becomes more like relationship than a method?

SPEAKER_00: 26:19

We'd have to talk about cultivating the value of silence, cultivating the value of quieting our inner voices in our head, you know, the dialogues and stuff. And so part of it is to have a listening heart is that I am capable of actively listening for anything that God may want to inspire me with, right? He doesn't necessarily have to speak, but in the scripture, I can be attracted to or convicted by a particular phrase or scene in the scripture, and I need to use that and hold on to that because that is the way in which the spirit is stirring up my heart, right? So it's more than just a method of reciting the prayer, it is actually engaging the Holy Spirit that inspired this prayer, and the Holy Spirit is still present in the written word, right? In the scripture that we have. So it can be it can be a method if that is the approach you use. It's only a method for prayer or to a task to be done, right? So then you're there's a superficiality to that, and there is a relationship there, but it's a very superficial relationship, and you're not allowing yourself to enter deeper into the intimacy that God is inviting you into. Um so the scripture is a uh a mediation, it is a media, a media, media is a good word. It is the media through which you facilitate the encounter with Christ, with uh the Holy Spirit. So um, I think a lot of it has to do with your own awareness of your interior life, your interior movements, right? So that's something that that's important as well. Are you capable of being objective about what's going on inside of you, your own interior life, right? And so um for it to be a method, um, a method will not allow that to happen. If you're focused on just the method and you're not focused on it being a door through which I enter into relationship, then it's gonna be a very superficial relationship. And right now I was thinking of the there used to be an old uh I don't I don't even people use it anymore. It was called Rogerian therapy. In Rogerian therapy, as the therapist is speaking with the client, uh, the Rogerian therapist would repeat back what they heard. This is what I hear you saying, right? So um sometimes in SNL uh skits, SNL skits, they would caricature this, like I hear you saying, right? And so like it's kind of like a character of a caricature of Rogerian therapy. Yeah but excuse me. The reason I'm bringing that up is that sometimes we can be so anal retentive about methods that we never put the method aside and we forget that the purpose of the method is to enable me to enter into the relationship with the Lord, a genuine relationship of intimacy. So the same thing happens in the situation of devotion moderna, I mean, excuse me, in like lectio divina. Yeah. If you approach it merely as a method or a task, then that's all it's going to be. It's only going to be a method or a task. I remember once I asked somebody to do some lectio over uh some scripture that would be think would have helped them. And so they came back the the next month, they came back, okay, I did it. So I did it, like, like, um, okay, you have anything to share? No, just I did the, you know, I did the thing, I did the repeating, and like, like, oh, okay. So apparently, yeah, didn't quite understand what I was trying to get at, right? So, again, going back to this idea of the ear of the heart, it's a way of uh what I mean by that is that you become aware of your interior life and you listen actively with your affect or with your emotion, and you allow the Holy Spirit to inspire you or to convict you, and that you respond to that gentle movement of the spirit within you. But you have to be aware that that movement, right? So that's the listening part of the heart. It may also very well be a strong or definite inspiration of the of the Holy Spirit, or it may be a conviction, an affirmation, or even just a gentle suggestion, because God the Holy Spirit is is gentle. Yeah, when when he needs to be gentle with us when we're uh too tender and he wants to inspire us.

SPEAKER_03: 31:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:19

No, and um is it Elijah? The still yes, quiet sound. Yes, yeah. It's more of a gentle, the gentle please. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um okay, so then Lectio Divina, there's there's four parts, and I can't remember the four off the what they are, but I I think it would be helpful if you could can you like walk us through like tell us what the four parts are, walk us through them, and then um and I think like just the the what's the word I'm looking for? The the the affirmation I guess that I want to give to people is that um especially if they've never really done this before, and like the guy that you were just saying, like go do this, and then he's like, Yep, did it right? So if you're unsure about how to really do this because this is new, like the slowness and the silence, especially if it's foreign to your way of life, like if this is something new that you're trying to use or a way to facilitate and cultivate that relationship with God, like it's gonna be hard.

SPEAKER_00: 32:31

Like it's gonna feel strange and and so yeah, so so usually when they break down lectio divina, it's broken down into four parts. So the the there is the lectio, the meditatio, oratio, and contemplatio, right? Those are the ways divided. So so first the reading, the lectio. So prayerful reading or listening to scripture. Somebody, if you're in a group, somebody can read the scripture to you, right? And so, or you, if you're by yourself, you can read it for yourself. And so you prayerfully read or listen to the scripture passage, and then it's followed by a period of of rumination, you know, or consideration, reflection, meditation. Uh, but this is the med the medit the meditatio part. So lectio meditatio is reflecting on that scripture passage, and then once you consider it for a little bit, then you enter into a loving conversation with God concerning the text, and that's the oratio, that's the prayer part, right? So it's the reading, the meditation, the prayer, and then after the prayer part, you sort of just rest in the presence of God. That's the contemplatio. So you that's the contemplation, just resting. So then this would bring the disciple to make a choice, to act on this inspiration uh by coming, committing to to uh living out some something that the the person feels, the disciple feels that this is what God is asking of them, or they're committing to uh to growing a particular virtue. Uh okay, so for example, let's let's let's try this. Um let's uh let's do Galatians. So chapter four, and I'm gonna read uh verse 31 uh to verse one of chapter five, right? Okay. So therefore, my brothers, we are not children of a slave girl, but of a mother who is free. It was for liberty's sake that Christ freed us. So stand firm and do not take on yourselves the yoke of slavery a second time. So you just that that's it. You just sit in silence for a minute. Then you come back and you read it again. Therefore, my brothers, we are not children of a slave girl, but of a mother who is free. It was for liberty's sake that Christ freed us. So stand firm and do not take on yourselves the yoke of slavery a second time. Then you wait it just a little bit, and then you read it a third time. Therefore, my brothers, we are not children of a slave girl, but of a mother who is free. It was for liberty's sake that Christ freed us. So stand firm and do not take on yourselves the yoke of slavery a second time. So then you just have a period of silence. You give people, you give yourself five minutes, ten minutes, if you're in a group, five minutes, eight minutes, just give them time just to sort of sit with the scripture, right? They think about it, they re pray about it, so then for yourself, if you're doing it by yourself, then you ask yourself or you become aware of was there a word or a phrase or an image that stood out for you?

SPEAKER_01: 36:42

Is there um is there any kind of before we move on, is there any kind of uh like how do you pick the the scripture verse? You know, is there is there anything is it just whatever you feel like or maybe you do the the gospel reading?

SPEAKER_00: 37:00

Usually yeah, usually if it's the gospel reading or reading from the mass, right? Yeah, that's what that's what I would do. Yeah. And so after the the the silent time you discuss it, I guess if you're in person or if you're alone, you just if you're in a group or if you're by yourself, then you sort of you know you can journal it or you can speak about it or you can bring it up right. So then did anything stand out to you? Oh, to me? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 37:32

So so for this um I guess two things. Does that is that okay? Is it that there's two things, right? So the first was the um uh the the slave girl, but uh we're not children of a slave girl, but a mother who's free, right? So the first thing that stood out was like who is this that he's referring to? And the second was to not take on yourselves the yoke of slavery a second time, kind of thing. So those were the two bits that or are the two parts that stood out.

SPEAKER_00: 38:14

Okay. So then you'd say, okay, so the the question of who is my free mother, who is my mother who is free, and do not I should not take on slavery a second time. So those were the two things you would sort of journal right, and so then you would sit with that. Like you would sit with, who is my who is my mother that is free? And what is the what is the danger of taking on slavery a second time? So then you would pray about it, you would open your heart to the Lord and you'd ask the Lord, yeah, what is it? You know, the spirit touched me, this touched me, uh, about the the mother who is free and taking on slavery a second time. So this this stood out to me, this touched me. So there's something here that you want to reveal to me, there's something here you want to inspire in me, there's something here that you would like me to surrender. I mean, so then you just open up your heart to the Lord uh about those two things that stood out to you, and just open up your heart to him and then just sort of spend some time with that. You give yourself five minutes, ten minutes, whatever, just spend some time with that. And then if you're journaling, then you can journal it out. You just journal it out. You know, sometimes some people need to speak it out or you know, think out loud or think it through verbally. Um, so that'd be something that that you would do, right? And then uh if you're in a group, then you can share. You know, you can take your turn sharing if you want to share what this uh meant to you, what what this inspired you, what this convicted you of, right? And then after everybody shares, or after you think about it, after you verbalize it, then you pray about this and you ask the Lord to help you to incorporate this into you. Your day or your week, uh, or as you're journaling. So how does this, how does this affect my my situation, my circumstance, my day, my week, whatever. And then it's like, okay, so I have to resist the temptation to not be a slave. I have to remember that I belong to, because my mother is free, I am free, I'm not a slave, and my mother would be this is the church. So I belong to freedom and that this is what Christ did for me. Christ um freed me for freedom's sake, that I be free. And so I have to ask myself, how are what are things that I'm enslaving myself to, what are things that I find myself under pressure to do or to be obligated, right? So this is this is then the way that that you would enter into that relationship with the Lord because He'd be speaking to you in in your life, uh, the spirit through the Spirit in your circumstance.

SPEAKER_01: 40:57

No, that's good. Um question before we move on. So for the slave girl mother who is free, I I thought of the church as well. But I also had the thought that it's in some way like a um I don't know, metaphor. Um it's symbolic of Mary as well, since she was given to the um to John, right? This is your mother, right? And she's free of sin. So I don't know that and I know a lot of times like Israel, Mary, the church, right? Oh, there's all that uh kind of interconnectedness. Anyway, that's where my mind went. Oh, good with those.

SPEAKER_00: 41:38

So then it'd be a matter of you know, you pray through that, you know, your relationship with our with the Blessed Virgin, appreciation for that, or the work of God in salvation history. And again, so it's a matter of this is what this is what the Lord is speaking to you, and you know, he may speak something else to somebody else if you're in a group, and so it's there's no right answer, and there's no wrong answer, because this is what the Lord is speaking to you in your circumstance, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 42:03

So so then through this friendship, this relationship with Jesus in this practice, it's like we come to understand ourselves better.

SPEAKER_00: 42:17

Right, because in this intimate relationship with the Lord, with the word, um, through entrance into this intimate relationship with the Lord, we come to a better understanding of ourselves because he is light, he is truth, he is perfection. And we come to know more about our own history as our history is being redeemed. And so we enter into that relationship with God's living word made flesh, and that is present to us, not just through scripture, through sacrament, through the indwelling. Um since he is also absolute truth, and in our relationship with God's truth, we come to know ourselves in truth. We know who we are in the light of Christ as truth. So then what happens then is the more of I have a relationship with the truth, then the lies of the world uh no longer bind me. And this goes back to the freedom, right? I'm no longer bound by the world or the world's estimations or values or cultural um prejudices or expectations, and I enter into the freedom of the sons of God, which is what Christ desires for me, what God the Father desires for me.

SPEAKER_01: 43:31

Yeah, no, this is this is good. So then how like how do we practice this? Like, if if this is something that someone's like, oh, this is this is groovy, I can get behind this. Like, how do I go about well, like, of course, did you say groovy, John? It is, it's very groovy. Um, I just aged myself a little bit. Um it's radical. I don't know. I'm trying to think of all the different um uh generational slang for how cool something is. Um but yeah, like it of course, relationship is not performative, but there are probably things we can do to do this better, yeah, or to set ourselves up for success. Like, don't have to be.

SPEAKER_00: 44:12

In any relationship, it takes investment. It takes investment, it takes knowing how to communicate. So to practice Lexio, first, yeah, you want to choose a text of the scripture that you want to pray with, or whether it's the scripture of the day, whether it's the readings of the Mass, if you're doing just reading, you want to get into the Gospel of John or the letters of Paul, whatever. You you just pick your scripture, but it's not a matter of speaking, it's not a matter of reading chapters at a time. It's just a short phrase, right? There's just a little a couple of verses that you want to pray with.

SPEAKER_01: 44:45

So probably not Leviticus or Well, you can I guess you could think those really hard old uh Old Testament books.

SPEAKER_00: 44:54

Yeah, about the setting up the ark and stuff. Yeah. So the text doesn't really make a difference as long as you're not uh setting a goal for yourself to cover a certain amount of text. Just pray with it uh so you're comfortable and then just keep repeating it and repeat it a couple of times.

SPEAKER_01: 45:12

So this is maybe to like you were saying, be interested. So pick something that you're interested in. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 45:20

Okay. So the amount the amount of text covered is in God's hands, not yours. So don't don't okay. So don't bind yourself to that. So one, choose text. Two, place yourself in a comfortable position, allow yourself to become silent. So be comfortable. If you're if you're not comfortable, then you're not gonna be able to pray because you're busy being uncomfortable and squirming or whatever. So find a comfortable place. Put yourself in a comfortable position and allow yourself to be silent with this scripture. Focus for a few minutes on breathing. You know, keep track of your breath, your heartbeat, right? Use a prayer word or a prayer phrase, something to help you just sort of bring your senses to focus on the scripture. Um, and so again, so this is yeah, century prayer. Like you if you want to use the Jesus prayer to become quiet, you can do that just to enjoy silence for a little bit. Because you're trying to do is you're trying to be quiet so that you can uh pray with this word. So you pick the scripture, you get comfortable, you focus, external and internal senses, right, to be quiet, right? Um then you turn to the text and you read it slowly, gently. You can savor each portion of the reading, you know, constantly listening for that still, still small voice, listen for that in with that interior ear, like, oh, for you it was like, okay, this free mother uh and slavery, right? So that stood out to you. So that that means that you were aware that there was something here, right? So that's you know, that's sort of learning to listen to the scripture as you repeat it. You read it and and slowly and you repeat it a couple of times, and then you begin to pick up where it is that the spirit is leading to you. Okay, so pick scripture, get comfortable, uh be silent, focus yourself, read the text slowly, and then fourthly, then take the word or the phrase into yourself, you know, just either memorize it or repeat it to yourself several times very slowly, you know, to like you know, free mother or uh slavery a second time and just repeat it over and over and just be quiet with that and just allow that to sort of be like your little mantra that the spirit is presenting to you. This is he's moving your heart because there's something here for you, right? This is the work of the spirit. And then what you do is then you enter into this thinking about this. What is this about, right? So you take the word into yourself, and then you speak to God, you converse with God using your your own words, ideas, images, whatever, anything. Just converse with him about this. What are you? Is there something here that speaks to you that convicts you? Is there something here that you discover about yourself or you discover about God, right? And so you use this in converse with him, you speak to him about this feeling, this experience, and then you just rest. And that's the hardest part for most people. Just to rest in God's love, God's embrace, just allow that word to continue to just sort of cover you, just allow the spirit to cover you with that word or words or images, and just rest there and then rejoice that God loves you, rejoice in the spirit speaking to you, right? And then you, as you give yourself time, then you begin to speak to God. Okay, so is there something here that I want to commit to? There's is there some insight into my own healing, my own redemption, or is there something here that the Lord is asking of me? And then you sort of make a commitment uh to do that, right? To a greater commit to virtue or or a greater, for example, to to think more about Mary and to investigate Mary or to to ponder Mary's purity as a free mother. I mean, those are those are things that you can use that. And sometimes you there's sometimes God will bless you with a particular scripture verse that you always come back to. There's always you always come back to, there's a verse that you always come back to. For me, it's always cast your net into the deep. And I always come back to that. I never discovered exactly what that means, but it brings me a lot of peace, a lot of stillness, a lot of calm. So I know the spirit is working in that. So sometimes you know you might run into that that you there's a text or uh uh something that that speaks to you, and so it's gonna you're gonna come back to that, right? And so I think if you're if you're beginning to do lexia, then I would say again, start with a favorite Bible passage. It's a favorite passage for a reason.

SPEAKER_01: 50:19

Yeah, something that interests you, right?

SPEAKER_00: 50:21

Yeah, so start with that and find a time that works best for you, morning, afternoon, evening, whatever. And I would say also you are going to be distracted, but don't fight the distractions. When you become aware that you are distracted, then just simply turn back to the scripture. Don't don't castigate yourself, don't blame yourself, don't, don't be angry, don't be disappointed. Just no, just gently come back to the scripture and begin to repeat it again and just center yourself again. And I would say, you know, challenge yourself to do this for maybe 15 minutes, 20 minutes a day if you if you can do that, and just establish that that routine discipline. Yeah, routine.

SPEAKER_01: 51:09

I love that you said that um the distractions, or that you brought up the distractions. Um we've said before, it's the the thing that is distracting, the thing that your your mind keeps going back to, it can be part of what we offer to God. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00: 51:30

Because it it's it's and again, distracted prayer is prayer, it's still prayer. And so part of it is that this is part of my poverty because I'm I'm exhausted or I'm stressed out, and all I can give you is this is all I can give you, and even my distraction then becomes something that I can give him. And so then that that is part of my prayer, and that's part of my own redemption, my own redeeming, my healing.

SPEAKER_01: 51:55

Yeah. Um that's kind of the I almost think that distraction is maybe the wrong word, too. Like I can I think about whenever I go pick up Betty from work, um, she gets in the car, and it's just like uh like uh not like word vomit, it's just like here's the whole day, right? Like everything all at once, right? Well, there's a reason for that, right? She's she's giving that to me in our relationship, right? This is my experience of the day. And um to to use the word distracted in prayer would I think parallel saying that her giving me all the her experiences of the day would be distracting her from loving me properly, right? Like that doesn't make sense. So when I'm distracted in prayer from God, um maybe um maybe I'm thinking more of myself in the moment, or I'm or I'm focused on myself, but it's I'm trying to give that to him. Right. Right, right, and it's okay. Yeah. That's an interesting way of of uh of thinking about it. Um so yeah, so I man, I like this. I like how personal Like Theo Divina is. It's it's less about like analyzing the text. Right, it's not scripture study. I was just about to say that, yeah, it's not scripture study, it's it's about understanding myself more and understanding myself in relationship with God. And then it it kind of personalizes not just salvation history and scripture, but my personal salvation history too, right? You know? Um, man, that's it's really I've never thought about I mean and I've I've known what Lectio Divina is, um, but I've never thought of it like this before. Have you ever had any kind of powerful Lectio Divina moments? I know you're talking about like the cast your net into the deep, but anything that specifically was just like, I don't know, big aha moments about yourself.

SPEAKER_00: 54:23

Yeah, I mean, and again, it's sometimes sometimes you know I've run across scriptural passages that that moved me interiorly, and I'll use them as a focal point to come to some sort of recollection or praise or thanksgiving, right? Um, and as I said, you know, there's some scripture passages that I can use if I'm distracted, and they bring me immediately, they bring me peace and calm. Um, even if I don't know what God is asking me with these passages of them that he gives me peace and calm and comfort in them, and that's that's plenty for me. Uh and so I know effectively, I know affectively that he loves me, and he gives me these scripture passages to calm me down and to give me peace and to bring me a tranquil mind, tranquil heart, tranquil uh spirit. So um, and again, part of it is I don't have to know intellectually what this scripture passage means to me, but I know that it has an effect on me, and that's that's that's fine. I don't have to know uh concretely what this is about.

SPEAKER_01: 55:33

Yeah, other than what is this what is this supposed to be saying instead it's just what does it say to me? Yeah. Right. Um all right, well, pro tip, what happens if you pick a scripture verse or something and you just get crickets like nothing stands out um to you or something like that.

SPEAKER_00: 55:52

That's fine. I think that's why it's important that you start with a scripture passage that you're familiar with or Bible story that you're that you like, that you're attracted to, right? And so sometimes if there's something there, um there's nothing there, if there's nothing and there's this dryness, that's fine. Uh the dryness is just as fine as well. The silence is fine. Then you just offer him up that silence and you thank him for that silence, and you know that he's working in you because it's God's word, and God's word is living. Yeah, and so you know it's doing work in you, and so that is satisfying, and that's enough to know that this is God's word, and and it is working in my heart and my soul, in my salvation history, and I don't necessarily have to have an experience for it to be uh valid, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 56:39

Is so you're talking desert fathers and and all that. Uh this form of prayer seems to be very Carmelite, um, right? It's interior, it's contemplative, it's quiet. Um is it connect to like you know, mental prayer in a kind of carmelite spirituality, or is it kind of going historically?

SPEAKER_00: 57:05

You do. I mean, the the meditatio, right? That's meditation, that's mental prayer, right? That's the quiet part of it, right? Yeah. Also, yes, it is part of that. But uh it's very much associated with Benedictine spirituality, again, because they're more monastic traditional or they've kept their monastic tradition more. Uh, and because of these roots that go back to the Desert Father and the Jesus prayer. For us, um, Lexio is helpful, but for us, it's always a matter of can I come to a place of just silence, uh silence, a silent listening, uh, allowing myself to love and be loved. That's we're always striving for, right? Um, and so yeah, Lexio is a native it is a prayer aid, a prayer support, and it is uh a great method. And some people really their whole spiritual life is built on this, and that's wonderful. That's great. Uh so yeah, I would say it is part of Carmelite spirituality too, because for Carmelites, I always joke that Carmelite spirit the Carmelite method of prayer is a methodless method. It says there is no method, you just yeah, whatever works is is fine. Uh so just more or less coming to a place of um that intimate presence and being aware of that intimate presence and that love that that is offered to me, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 58:26

And what did what does St. Teresa say about um silent prayer or adoration?

SPEAKER_00: 58:33

Uh Teresa says that medit uh medit uh yeah, meditation or silent prayer is spending time alone with the one who loves you. Yeah. And John of the Cross says contemplation is a simple loving gaze. So those are ways that they define it.

SPEAKER_01: 58:54

Yeah. So here let's uh because I see how long we've been been chatting. How about you let's let's wrap it up with this prayer, we like we've I think we've done a good job of of kind of exploring here that especially Lectio Divina, it's not about scripture, it's that self-discovery, that self-transformation, and that's what prayer and relationship with God does. So, like how does it change us over time?

SPEAKER_00: 59:25

Prayer, um, like like any relationship has its own organic and dynamic life, and like any relationship, um, there are times of deep, intimate transparency. So my transparency with God is redemptive and healing. And so there are times of transition. Uh there's times of confusion, times of questioning in our lives, and by bringing this to him and being transparent about this, I am allowing him to enter deeper into my own history. Redemption and therefore my own conversion, my own growth. Usually, if the relationship is based on trust and transparency, the relationship will continue to grow into any an ever deeper intimacy. And because this is an intimate relationship with the totally absolute other, it will out of necessity cause change in us and in our way of being understanding and relating to others. So yeah, the the the conversion continues and deepens.

SPEAKER_01: 1:00:31

Yeah, and that's I I think why for uh for the Christian prayer is a necessity because the relationship is necessary. Yes, yes. Yeah. Man, this is good. And I feel like we could talk about it forever, and we could probably talk about nine more times, nine more episodes. Um I will for sure link uh all of the related episodes, um, at least at the time when we post this, um, down in the show notes. Um but before we go, also in the show notes, just want to thank everybody for their continued prayers uh and their support. Um and uh I'd like to like and subscribe. Yeah, encourage everyone, like and subscribe. That's the easiest way to support us. Um and it's absolutely free. It's a super free way to support uh support the Carmelite Friars here at the the province of St. Teresa at Therese uh here in the U.S. Um also to remind everybody down in the show notes or the description on YouTube, wherever you're listening to us, uh the Carmelites they've set up a link. People can do online donations. Uh they can either do monthly or they can do uh singular one-time donation. And I like that you can do it with a um in memory of kind of thing or like with an intention behind it. That's really cool. But anyway, uh, but first and foremost, everybody please support them with your prayers. Uh pray for them, pray for us, and know that they're praying for you. So yeah, thank you. And Father, thank you. And we'll see everybody next time. Bye. Okay, bye.